Re: Western Extension of the Great Wall

On most maps, the Great Wall seems to end near the Jiuquan pass. But in the January 2008 issue of China Today, the Han Dynasty wall is shown to extend well into Xinjiang up to Korla (where Michael spent over three years of his life). Does any one know the existence of that section of the wall?

hahaha, having visa problems huh? haha, thats what you get for supporting separatists. karma sucks doesnt it?

do 1.3 billion people a favor and stay on that farm or trailer in new jersey you came from.

There are enough people out on the street today and cops along the parade route that I thought the torch might be coming through Urumqi today.

Also something definately happened in SanGong though the police stations are still standing unscathed (one has a lot of metal sheeting covering the windows though).

I saw on Xinhua that 10 foreigners were to carry the torch on the Xinjiang leg. Any idea who any of them are?

Arjun,

If my memories serves right. Han Wall extends to sands of Lop Nor , the dried up lake where China used to detonate thermo-nuclear weapons but not as far as Korla. That(Lop Nor)'s the farthest western extension of the Wall.

By contrast, Tang didn't build any wall, destruction of the Empire of Göktürks void the necessity.

Genghis Khan didn't have to overcome the Great Wall. Marco Polo didn't write about Great Wall because it didn't exist in his time. The so-called Jin dynasty "great wall" build by Jurchen Jin empire to keep out the Mongol calvary is actually a long ditch stretch thousands of miles rather a wall.

@cripe: No, not visa problems, but my employer wants me to switch from an F (business) visa to a Z (work) visa. For unknown creepy authoritarian reasons, China isn't allowing foreigners to obtain Z visas inside the country (which was possible before) or even in Hong Kong! There's no sense behind the new restriction on obtaining legitimate Z visas, but hey... that's how the CPC likes to show who's the boss. (By making me buy a plane ticket.)

On a positive note: hotdogs and hamburgers at 4th of July barbecues for the first time in years. Sweet!

Michael,

I don't envy you the 16-hour plane ride, but I'll definitely be thinking jealous thoughts while I rock July 4 with my yangrou chuan'r and roujiamou...

i love it how expat try to tell a govt how to handle its visa policy.

imagine some chinese student started telling the US govt right after 9/11, whats with all the security details????

unknown creepy authoritarian? all countries go through the same shit when they host large international events. god i love it how expats always complain me me me, why does my life have to be effected. my role in china is so important.

god i hope who ever handles your visa sees this separatist loving page and denies you entry into china. we have enough untalented english teachers here thank you

oh, btw, if you hate china's visa laws so much, and you think our govt is some ungodly authoritarian dictatorship who intentionally gives foreigners a hard to time show them whose top dog, i have a remedy for that problem.

stay in your home country and dont come back.

Except that the U.S. tells people what the rules are and then follows them. In China, the rules are hidden and nobody knows what to do. That's what I'm complaining about. I don't expect special treatment, just a fair process.

And, yes, people have been getting rejected visa to the U.S. for years now based on secret terrorism rulings, etc. But that's the exception, not the rule.

Why can't the Chinese government figure out what they themselves are doing?

i know hundreds of chinese people who had the us visa arbitrarily denied, over dubious, inconsistent reasons. i.e. if your passport says you got a connecting flight in saudia arabia, visa denied, even though you studied in us for the past 5 years.

you call that fair, clear rules that are outlined to everyone and followed consistently?

lets face it, foreigners are allowed into china infinitely more easily than a Chinese person is allowed into america. and its infinitely more easy for a foreigner to live and work in china than vice versa. so stop complaining.

the govt does know what its doing, it just doesnt feel the need to bend over backwards to accommodate a bunch of deadbeat foreigners while implementing its security measures, just like ur govt does.

the important expats can all get their z visa in china, no problem, so if you are having trouble, it should shed some light on how important your job really is.

and to borrow from you, this current visa blimp is the exception not the rule.

you think after the torch protests in april, and how much hatred the west has for china, that china is going to open its doors and let in all those people who wish to sabotage the olympics? your crazy right?

these restrictions have reasons.

Cripe, simple solution to untalanted teacher problem: tell your education bosses to be a little more honest, and quite possibly the talented teachers will want to stay.

@cripe (s)

yu really are disturbed by Michael arent yu. It is so obvious. All he does is blog buddy and others respond and with truths you cant digest or are unwilling to fdigest. Yuare another of the half -educated Chinese no it alls who interprets any criticism of China as hate China posts. hmmm...very fragile aren't you darling. My question is what happened to yu to make yu such a nasty piece of work? Did it hurt?

PS Thers plenty more like Michael around Mr. Cripps. and by the way, qingwen, where did you learn your impeccable English?

More details today on the Xinjiang leg of the torch relay from Reuters:

China warns spectators off Xinjiang torch relay
Mon Jun 16, 2008 8:01am EDT
By Ben Blanchard

URUMQI, China (Reuters) - Authorities in China's troubled far-western region of Xinjiang are telling people who want to watch the Olympic torch as it passes through the area to stay at home and tune into the television instead.

In other parts of China spectators have thronged streets to get a glimpse of the torch relay, but in Xinjiang they have been banned from climbing trees or collecting on bridges under which the flame will pass, state media said on Monday.

The steps are a measure of the sensitivity which surrounds Xinjiang, an oil-rich border region which is home to the Muslim Uighur people. Beijing blames some Uighurs for a series of attacks in the name of agitating for an independent state.

"Considering that too many people will cause a lack of safety, we are recommending that everyone watches on the television from home," the official Xinjiang Daily quoted the Communist Party boss of the region's sports administration, Li Guangming, as saying.

"The government expects tens of thousands of people will shout encouragement on the streets who have come in groups with their work units," Li said.

The torch, whose progress around the world had been dogged by anti-Chinese protests, is to be paraded through Xinjiang's regional capital Urumqi on Tuesday before heading to the mainly Uighur city of Kashgar, not far from the Pakistan and Afghanistan frontier.

A three-day tour of Tibet was supposed to precede this leg but the schedule was altered after a three-day suspension for the Sichuan earthquake. A curtailed trip to the Himalayan region will now follow the torch's passage through Xinjiang, organisers said.

TIGHTENING GRIP

Xinjiang is home to 8 million Uighurs, many of whom resent the growing presence and economic grip of the Han Chinese. The government insists only a tiny minority support the separatists.

On Monday soldiers and police sealed off and patrolled Urumqi's main square, where Tuesday's torch procession will start.

In the mainly Uighur bazaar area there were no obvious signs of the Chinese flags or Olympic paraphernalia being sported by Han Chinese residents in other parts of the city in preparation to welcome the torch.

"I heard that they are going to run the torch tomorrow, but I don't know any other details," said Kerbanjan, an ethnic Uighur.

Newspapers warned that "uncivilised behaviour" would be "appropriately dealt with".

"Do not shout slogans that damage the image of the nation or of the city," the Urumqi Evening News said, outlining a long list of behaviour that was similarly banned, including not taking pets along to look at the spectacle or setting off fireworks.

Foreign reporters covering the event have likewise been warned to behave in the event of a protest along or near the route, euphemistically referred to as a "sudden incident".

"If foreign reporters cover a sudden incident, they will be subject to site safety management instructions and ... should follow the advice of security personnel on the spot," a handbook reads, without elaborating.

China claims to have cracked at least two Xinjiang-based terror plots this year, one involving an attempt to blow up an aircraft flying to Beijing and another to kidnap foreigners and carry out suicide attacks during the Olympics.

Dilxat Raxit, spokesman for the exiled World Uyghur Congress, said China was using the Olympics as an excuse to further crack down on his people.

"Uighurs are still living in a culture of fear, facing persecution, marginalisation and assimilation that erode the very core of cultural identity, religious belief and economic rights of Uighurs," he said in an emailed statement.

In Urumqi, a largely Han Chinese city, some Uighurs said they had no interest in seeing the torch.

"No, I'm not going," said one fruit-seller who gave his name as Mohammed, waving his hand in front of his face. "I'm not interested in it."

(Additional reporting by Royston Chan)

There was a nice little note on the door to my hotel that all foreigners would have to stay inside tomorrow morning as the torch is in town. "For our own safety"

Either they think we have the brains of 3 year olds or the spines of 3 year olds.

@james

half educated know it alls? i think you just described 90% of the epat community in china,

the hordes of nerdy western men who come to china, cause their paper route paychecks go a long way here,

then they learn a few chinese words, take a few pictures, and then announce to the world they are a sinologist, specializing in knowing what is best for china's future, and how the govt should run the country.

and to borrow from you,

you are one of these quarter educated know it all westerner who feels they are on some holy mission to bring freedom to poor colored people.

you interpret any Chinese person who criticizes the west, or displays any defense of china as someone who is a brainwashed fascist.

my question to you is, what made you such a flaming china hating racist sino phobe?

PS its normal for us chinese to master a second language quite easily, where as westerners who live here for ten years, probably can only muster out, 我要啤酒. and it will probably take them an additional ten years for them to read these characters.

Hey James, I'd check your own spelling and syntax before you start calling people uneducated.

More info on the torch run in Xinjiang:

The torch relay will begin tomorrow (Tuesday) morning at 9:30am Beijing Time in Urumqi's People's Square, and will conclude at some sort of sports center(?). 208 torch bearers will carry the torch on a 12.48km long route.

The torch will travel to Kashgar on Wednesday, and will pass through Shihezi and Changji on Thursday.

Totally unrelated to the flame war here! I snapped a goofy picture the other day and it made me think of you and your funny caption contests. The picture's here, http://simpsonsparadox.com/2008/06/16/the-emperors-new-clothes/, hope it gives you a giggle too!

dyn vanished, but appeared an "cripe"

@miloservic: I don't think so. IP addresses aren't the same or similar.

@Cao

Have you seen the map in the January 2008 issue of China Today. The wall is clearly shown to have extended right up to and including Korla. I doubt if Korla is the ancient name of that town. Also, whatever happened to that section of the wall?

@Arjun

I must plead ignorance to the January 2008 issue of China Today. Back in the days (twenty years ago), my dad used to have subscription to the magazine.

I did find this English article on the internet about the Wall in Xinjiang.

http://english.people.com.cn/english/200102/22/eng20010222_63087.html

While it talks about Wall stretch to sands of Lop Nor, it also mention that experts think Lop Nor segment is not likely to be the end of the Great Wall.

Apparently the Wall was extended to shore of Lop Nor to protect the city-state/military outpost of Loulan. Loulan ruin is a famous archaeological site where "Beauty of Loulan" was unearthed. It's important for study of the culture of Tocharian, the most eastern branch of Indo-European people. Not sure if it's open to public tourism though.

I think too when discussing "The Great Wall," it's best to consider the subject in the plural. There were dozens of 'great walls' constructed beginning in the Warring States period and continuing down through the Ming. Some were rebuilt and reused many times, others were connected through the construction of new sections or extended by building spurs, others fell into disrepair as the boundaries of the different empires/dynasties who ruled in what is today the PRC shifted.

Just a thought.

dyn vanished, but appeared an "cripe"
========================
I am always here.
listen to you.

to cripe:
James is a supporter of splittists.
michael is NOT.

@ dyn

may your meagre mind "split" into two - thats my thoughts on 'splittists'.

@ BJD.

My SPELING IS BAD WHEN IM DRUNK AND WRITE AND FORGET TO EDIT OUT MY PASSION TO SLAM DOWN THE SEND BUTTON WHEN I ENCOUNTER PURE COCKERY AS YU DISPLAY. MY SYNTAX IS PERFECT NOSE RUN. it never detracts from my meaning or muddies it- its i therefore legitimate- know it all. LETS SEE SOME MORE OF YOUR MOFO WRITING BEFORE WE JUDGE EH? IVE SEEN SO MUCH SHIT FROM THESE FASCIST IGNORAMUSES who get on here (or should i say get off here), SO MUCH UNINTELLIGBLE, GARBLED, NONSENSE, I HaVE EVERY RIGHT TO CRITICIZE. and YOU?

@cripes

re: your unimaginative, plagiarizing inverted rationale:

"and to borrow from you,

you are one of these quarter educated know it all westerner who feels they are on some holy mission to bring freedom to poor colored people.

you interpret any Chinese person who criticizes the west, or displays any defense of china as someone who is a brainwashed fascist.

my question to you is, what made you such a flaming china hating racist sino phobe?

PS its normal for us chinese to master a second language quite easily, where as westerners who live here for ten years, probably can only muster out, 我要啤酒. and it will probably take them an additional ten years for them to read these characters."

it is not normal for chinese to master a second language yu lying bullshitting dog's breath. lets get things straight first. Who fucken told yu that. what bullshit. I read Hanzi and i read Uyghur and Kazakh and Cyrillic and Persian and Arabic and Thai and Turkish and Urdu and bloody modern and ancient greek for that matter. Yu bumble along in english better than most Han I must say but as Jimba points out more than well yu are the half educated fuck-wit not others, so stop projecting your fissile insecurities. I have no tolerasnce for your type of gutless fascist shit any longer. I will call a spade a spade. Yu are the refuse of the world's history. I have fond memories of many fine Han Chinese friends i have tarvelled with, lived with and made love to. Yu would never be one of them fuck face nor would yu be deserving of any honest person's friendship. Go stick your head down the local cesspit where it belongs and shut up.

@James, omg haha

the truth hurts like a slap in the face huh? haha, i pulled this guys string so much, hes gotta throw out part of his resume on some blog in a sad attempt to impress people, i think your disturbing insecurities cause you to exaggerate other's. pathetic, sad, seek help James, no the madrassa doesnt count.

for every white person i met that can carry on a 10 minute conversation in chinese, i know 10 000 chinese people who can speak english infinitely better.

god, why are you so angry? i think you dumb down this blog a lot, you bring out the sour mood.

ok to tell you the truth, the reason my english is so good, is because of your little sister.

thank her, she gave one of my heads pleasure, the other knowledge.

Update on the Urumqi leg of the torch relay from AFP:

Tight security as Olympic flame starts Xinjiang leg
17 June 2008

URUMQI, China (AFP) — Police imposed a security lockdown as the Olympic torch Tuesday started its run through China's mainly Muslim region of Xinjiang, seen as the most sensitive leg yet of its nationwide journey.

The centre of the regional capital Urumqi was largely shut down and police checkpoints restricted movement throughout the normally bustling city.

Police imposed particularly heavy security at the central People's Square, where Tuesday's relay kicked off, and anyone entering had to go through metal detectors and bag searches.

The flame's passage through Xinjiang and the Tibetan regions of China are considered the most sensitive of the three-month journey to the Beijing Games in August because of simmering discontent among local ethnic groups.

The three-day, four-city Xinjiang leg began with a 12-kilometre (7.5-mile) relay through Urumqi from People's Square, regarded as a symbol of Communist power in the city.

The crowd, numbering about 3,000, chanted "Go, China!" and "Go, Olympics!" as the relay got underway under sunny skies. Many had stickers of the Chinese flag on their cheeks.

They were overwhelmingly Han Chinese, with only a tiny number of Uighurs, the largest ethnic group in the region.

Leading away from the square, the crowds lining the route were also mostly Chinese, many of them young people taking a break from their studies, as well as government employees.

The Urumqi relay appeared to get under way without trouble, but AFP could not immediately determine its further progress as Chinese authorities required journalists to choose just one vantage point.

A large red banner at the square called for unity among Xinjiang's ethnic minorities, while a large TV screen showed video footage proclaiming that its 47 minorities "get along so well."

Despite Tuesday's fanfare, some Uighurs shrugged their shoulders over the relay's arrival here.

"What does it have to do with us? That is China's Olympics. We don't care," a shop owner named Azatjan said dismissively before the start, as his daughter urged him to be quiet.

Xinjiang is a region of vast deserts and stunning mountains that is home to more than eight millions Uighurs, a Muslim, Central Asian people who speak a Turkic language.

Many Uighurs discreetly criticise Chinese control, alleging political and religious oppression and systematic discrimination against them in employment, education, and business.

Uighur exiles and residents told AFP that Chinese authorities had detained thousands of Uighurs, and confiscated the passports of many others, in recent months.

Some Muslims told AFP the passport measure was to prevent anyone linking up abroad with "terrorist" plots aimed at the Olympics.

The sensitivity of the Xinjiang leg was heightened earlier this year when Beijing said it had smashed Xinjiang-based terror plots targeting the Games.

Uighurs widely dismiss such Chinese claims as an attempt to justify strict control of Xinjiang.

"Uighurs are living in a culture of fear, facing persecution, marginalisation and assimilation that erode the very core of their cultural identity, religious belief and economic rights," said Dilxat Raxit, spokesman for the Germany-based World Uighur Congress, an exile group.

The torch moves Wednesday to the Silk Road oasis city of Kashgar, then to the cities of Shihezi and Changji on Thursday.

The timing of the Xinjiang leg had been unexpectedly brought forward from its original slot next week without explanation.

The leg through Tibet, shrouded in mystery after anti-Chinese riots erupted across the Tibetan plateau in March, will take place on Saturday, state media said Monday.

@Jeremiah

You missed the first half of the convo. We are talking about Han Wall here. Han is the only Chinese empire (that we know of) that extend the Wall to Xinjiang. It's only after Han Flying Cavalier General Huo Qubing defeated the left wing of XiongNu, that Chinese control extended to Western Gansu and eventually Tarim basin of modern day Xinjiang. Before the Han, Gansu was the homeland of Indo-European Yuezhi people who were driven out by Xiong Nu and later founded Kushan Empire in Bactria and Northern India.

Han successor state Cao Wei and Western Jin likely maintained Han Wall in Xinjiang as they still maintain garrisons there.

Collapse of Western Jin resulted in reversion to local control in Xinjiang until reconquest by Former Qin general Lu Guang who led an expedition all the way to Kashgar. Former Qin didn't last long enough to build its own Wall. Lu Guang settled in Gansu and founded Former Liang. No indication that he build any Wall.

When Northen Wei founded by nomadic Touba unified northern China, it controlled southeastern third of Xinjiang. Touba emperors build Walls to defend against Khanate of Rouran (Juan Juan). But according to documentation, the western end of the Touba Wei Wall ended in Wu Yuan of Inner Mongolia.

Successor states of Northern Wei (East and West Wei which were replaced by Northern Qi and Northern Zhou respectively) build Wall to defend against the rising empire of Blue Turk. But again there is no documentation to show that Western Wei or Northern Zhou extended the Wall to Xinjiang.

Sui succeed Northern Zhou and updated its wall against Turks (not sure if Sui extended the Wall to Xinjiang).

Tang succeed Sui and its emperor Tang Taizong Li Shimin proceeded to destroy both the Eastern and Western Turk empires. As result Tang never bother with Wall building.

During the rise of Temujin as Chinggis Khan, Jurchen Jin Empire of Northern China build what is known as "Jin Great Wall", but really a giant ditch stretching from today's Russian territory of Republic of Buriat to Inner Mongolia near bend of Yellow River. The ditch didn't stop the iron hoofs of the Mongols but is now being developed as tourist destinations.

Next time the Great Wall would be build out of stone and bricks by the Ming to defend against the brief resurgence of Mongol Power under Dayan and Altan Khan. This "Modern Wall" would end in Jiayuguan.

Both written and archaeologic evidence suggest that the Wall that half buried in the sands of Lop Nur is the remanant of the Han Wall.

So it came and went. I spent the first part of the night in a Wang Ba hoping to be in a good place in the morning to watch the torch go by, then the Wang Ba was closed at about 2 and there were so many police and army patrolling the streets that I knew there was no chance of being near when the actual event went down. It was sad but I watched from a window of my hotel and got just a small glimpse. Even the other Chinese in the hotel couldn't go out. What an odd way to treat such a public event.

This was a good demonstration of what the government can do when they really want to close down a city.

@James - I hear what you are saying but if you are going to get lashed up and then write gash you leave yourself wide open.

I might not see totally eye-to-eye with Cripe but he does have point, though much is moot. I think for many Cripe just highlights the truth about many foreigners here in China, revealing a truth they thought they had successfully run away from.

I don't feel a need to justify myself, so fire away - my shoulders are big enough to take a cyber-bashing from two-bob English 'teachers' and others of their kidney.

Regards

@ cripe.

what yu perceive as anger is not. I do not have a sister. Yu are exposed for the freaky little liar yu really are.

Yu are the one who started with the crap and comparisons. My resume was partial smart arse and thats true - what matters most is my hatred which is perfect - thats right I hate yu perfectly and others like yu and for good reason. Thus my hatred is valid and justified. Forget anger. Who'd get angry with toe-jam like yu guys??? What a waste of vital chi.

It is your mentality and historical nonsense such as the above post by Cao Meng, who belongs in an asylum for the politically insane, which undergirds CCP genocide and former Han genocides in what is now wrongly called western China. Such historical control allows CCP to murder its minorities at will. I hate it for it is a perfectly evil lie and freaks like yu who get on here to uphold it are partakers of that evil.

How do we magically make guys like yu appear? The answer is easy: make statements that contradict your grand historical narrative. Dont forget people are imprisoned, tortured and put to death in your country for challenging its lies. Like the lies your last post was full of - most Chinese master a second language - oh sure Ill believe that - sounds reasonable. What crap. 'believe or die' says the fascist pig. 'Believe this or we will kill yu, because we are truth and what we say is truth.' Talk about insecurity, oooooooh Allah WHAT CRAP. Oh Confucious please discipline your wayward children they tell so many lies they no longer know the truth...Lao zi come back from the West and mock these adolescent fools who destroy your patrimony. Oh Mao rise up so we can see your stinking corpse in Tiananmen, and all the brave souls murdered by your party over the decades can appear and judge yu for the lying, murdering deceiver yu were.

I dont sour the mood on this blog at all. I make two types of posts : 01/ in response to the many interesting posts Michael makes here and 02/ in repsonse to Han nazis who cannot tolerate having their fantasy land history challenged. Yu brat fit into this category.

Why yu want me to leave is because I challenge your fantasy narrative. Listen to fucken Cao Meng de pontificate above with that fairy tale about this dynasty and that dynasty - hey they were all Central Asian dynasties ruling an inbred Han China, who couldn't get its act together since the Han dynasty, when Han got its arse kicked solid in Central Asia and was sent back into its own territorial confines in shame; and then commissioned its historians to write the fantasy adventure story; which despite its various accuracies and statistics remains full of holes and interpolations; but listen to the narrative of Cao meng de as if China has always been one and the same. Pheww, what shit. Thats why yu dont like it whn people challeng your fairy tale, it angers yu and others like yu, it shakes the shit out of yu which yu are so full of. Because if it aint true your big tough fascist state could fall apart. Oh. and it will dont worry about that as sure as the sun rises everyday, that gonna happen. So I provoke yu knuckleheads so the world can see what representative Chinese fascists are like. So we can imagine there are at least 1000 for every one of yu who appears here if not more. Poor backward China. No chance with idiots like this at hand - the half educated type who got taught by lousy English teachers and are still pissed off. Sorry, as Jimba pointed out, if the country treated foreigners better yu would have had better teachers, but your xenophobic, racist party and its control trip and lousy pay, and awful filthy, dirty appartments, full of shitty smells, yu call foreign accommodation, drove the cream away, even the altruistic ones. So dont complain when yu get crap. Hey man yu guys treat yourselves like crap let alone minorities or foreigners. Best thing about teaching there is all the dopey lil chicks yu can screw for nothing eh Cripes,? good lil head jobbers when yu teach em how, eh? Buddy, eh come on, we're both men, do yu yourself? ummm... let me know.

And may I say yu are so sour I can smell yu from here. As i said my hatred of your deciet, lies and murderous thoughts is perfect. I pull no punches with low life like yu and your An Quan Ting & PSB buddies. So Fuck Off.

To the very reasonable and well meaning BJD: Get Fucked! Clear, Concise, Grammatically correct enough for you?

FINIS.

Not really, you shouldn't have capitalised the 'f' on fuck, and was it really an exclamation?
Still, 7/10 for effort.

@ James, arguing with these prople is like hitting your head against a brick wall. You cannot reason with them because, as we've both discovered, they lack the education and a general world view to understand anything other than the propoganda that's fed to them. Their insecurity is blatent and anyone who reads their dribble with any sense is equally amused. Save your energy for those you can discuss, rather than dribble shit.

"they lack the education and a general world view to understand anything other than the propoganda (sic) that's fed to them. Their insecurity is blatent (sic)"

This is fucking priceless.

"Save your energy for those you can discuss..."

Ditto

Cao Ming De
Haven't you reed Chinese history during the 1912-1949,it is totally differnet version that written by Komintang and CCP.Don't you think about that in ancient China historians were government officials?Think twice man!Don't be too rediculous.

@james, (the poetic hero who will save central asia)

ah sorry man, that wasnt your sister??!!? shit, you gotta tell your mom, shes looking great for her age.

after about the first 5 lines, i stopped reading, sorry man, i cant go through all that dark, disturbed hatred.

dude, im just someone who doesnt like the foreigners who come to china thinking they are the shit. when have i mentioned history?

i just dont like arrogant foreigners who think they know everything about china. ("cough" you & michael) you confuse me with some fantastic creature that seems to made up in that sick mind you have.

seeing that you have some real problems, so much so that you need to spill your life's work out onto this shitty blog, i'll make this short

damn i guess this is what happens when your zoloft and prozac run out huh?

dont worry, just pray to allah, and watch your bin laden training video to get your mind into focus. allah akbar huh James? you love em,

you extremity scares many, it inspires the ignorant, but makes you look like an angry, lonely, disturbed, individual.

CMD,

No, I saw the first part of the 'convo.' I was just suggesting that using the article "the" when referring to great walls (present, past, and ancient) might confuse the issue a bit. That's all.

@Tom,

I don't just read the versions of history of 1912-1949 by GMD and CCP. I also read books and memoirs by foreign missionaries, businessmen, diplomats, journalists,American Intelligence officers. Combine that with personal stories of my grandparents, I believe I get a pretty good pictures of what happened between 1912- 1949.

Not all Chinese history writing were sponsored by the state or written by historians who tow the state-line. Haven't you heard of Grand Historian Sima Qin?

If you are Chinese, I urge you to learn more about your own history. If you are foreign, then you are forgiven for your ignorance.

@Tom

continued,

Fact remains that Chinese have one of the best documented history. Much of what we know about history of Central Asian nomads of various Turko-Mongol groups, we get from Chinese sources. Sure there is inherent bias, but that could be offset by reading history written by the nomads themselves such as "Secret History of the Mongols" and Orkhon inscriptions by Göktürks or contrast them with Persian sources.

For a long time Western historians seem rather dismissive of Chinese written sources in favor of archaeological evidence. I suspect it has to do with their unfamiliarity of Chinese language source.

My high school history teacher who is a full-blooded Native American have said that White historians often ignore Native American Oral history in postulating theory of origin of human settlement in Americas. Their knowledge limit to what's being deduced from few digs.

Every Chinese school children knew that Chinese dynastic history started with Xia, Shang, Zhou. But Western historian for a long time dismiss the Xia and Shang as mere myth until the unearth of Shang ruins in Anyang in 1928. Of course, Westerners still doubts the existence of Xia. Being Westerners, they are duly forgiven for their peculiar ways.

The reports by foreign media such as AFP pasted in this forum are typical western propaganda to fool their own readers. I have been to the US and once had a native american colleague, in reponding to the celebration of Thanksgiving, she told me it is not so great a festivity to the native if one knew what the white had done to their people after the settlers's first feast in the new world. In another case, a mexican american college student in Texas told me not to be fooled by the equal opportunity propagated by the media, "you don't know what the white have done to our people" he said.
I believe the white must also have their grievance of minority high crime rate too. This are normal grievances in any society. No normal person would start burning and killing because of having such grievance. In fact those people in US I mentioned gone back to work for a better future after talking to me. It sure looks crazy for the native indian or chicano or black to form groups in Tokyo, Beijing, or Jakarta to complaint about their grievance everyday. But this is happening with the uighur and tibetan dissedents infested in Washington DC. The US neocon and the media honchos sure have axes to grind to support such crazy groups of people.
By the way I don't trust AFP or AP and many other western media after the episode of white found food and black loot for food reporting during the Katrina disaster in New Orlean. They sure are racist media.

@CMD

What you refer to as "Jin Great Wall" is also marked as the "Genghis Khan Wall" in some maps. But its location is slightly diffferent from what you say. This latter wall traverses in a nearly east-west direction near the trijunction of present-day Russia, Mongolia and China. What, do you think, was the purpose of this wall? To keep whom away from what?

@Arjun

I thought it would be fairly obvious.

Anyways, Unlike Khitan Liao empire who proceed Jurchen Jin, Jin Empire didn't maintain garrisons in Mongolia. Jin used traditional divide and conquer strategy to control the nomads of Mongolian plains.

Jurchen like their Manchu successors has their homeland in the forests and plains of Manchuria. The section of wall near the trijunction of present-day Russia, Mongolia and China would be protecting the Jurchen's Manchurian homeland against the the rising Mongol power.

It didn't work.

@Arjun

continued

Journalist Michael Wines wrote an article on "Genghis Khan Wall" in New York Times a while back. Where he had some Russian dude claim that "Genghis Khan Wall" was built by Liao which is certainly not true. Anyways, like his fellow colleagues who report from China, Michael Wines is just a third rate hack. www.exile.ru had much more choice words for him and his mediocre reporting on Russia.

@ cripes

Im an orphan muther fucker and yu read more than 5 lines. I live with my 5 chinese girlfriends . I love them and they love me. Yure the lonely twisted little shit goot it dog's breath! the lonely perverted , twisted one of the dark dungeon of the mind. Stop projecting; yure inversion is clear to all. and what i said stands: what enfuriates yu about this "shitty" (stolen, plagiarized word from my post)blog is we discuss the un-discussable- your country's make believe history and we call it what it is: bullshit - have some more for dinner budd. I wont be responding any more to your tripe - try that word instead of cripe. Im going to bed for some ummm. comfort.

@BDB

yure really getting naughty now arent yu lil boy. Mumma will spank. Stop using bad, bad, words, now. I know yu present yourself a paragon of righteousness and correctness. So stop giving into the temptation to let out all the fuming pent-up anger in there. Or just let it rip buddy and stop the pretense - unveil the inner man!

@ khan .

I warned yu arrogant SOB.

prepare for your death

Yes, I've also always encouraged BJD to unveil his inner man... I know there's something behind the "paragon of righteousness and correctness" exterior. Such a fascinating character, that BJD.

CMD
I know Chinese pritty well and I have reed Shiji史记,it was not written by Grand historian Sima Qin,but Si Ma Qian.If reed that book ,do you still remember Lianpo and Linxiangrou zhuan,in that part you can see how Chinese history was written.
By the way ,Nowadays, Chinese historian,who study Uyghur none of them can speak Uyghur fluintly,The most of Chinese experts about Xinjiang issue can't speak a word in Uyghur or Kazakh.You said we are ignorant,Dou you know who wrote about the Chinese dialects first.Chinese history is not a history in modern context,it is only historical material.It needs to prove by arceology,anthropology ,linguistics...

michael,

You blog seem to attract a very...fascinating crowd. Some self-reflection is in order.

Tom,

"Chinese history is not a history in modern context,it is only historical material."

Would you say the same about writings of Herodotus of Halicarnassus?

@ Micheal

I love all the characters here especially yu Mick. I love bald guys. But could yu please exterminate Cao Meng de, please, please, please, he is as dated as Herodotus, irrelevant and anachronistic, but wont lay down. Khan is finished.

LOL. Jimmy ole boy, I could always count on you for a good laugh. Gotta attend to my beauty sleep now so I could catch some waves 2morow morning.

Tootle off...

@ BJD: Spelling mistakes aside, and they do happen - shock horror - you're still an ass and not worth the oxygen that you're so clearly deprived of. Fly away troublesome bird.

@CMD

Thanx for your expo. But my question is, if the Jurchen/Manchu wanted to protect themselves from the Mongols, they should have built the wall in a north-south direction and not east-west. That does not make much sense to me. Can you explain?

@Arjun

If my memory serves me, The Jin "Wall" extends from Russian territory follows contours of today's Inner Mongolia and stretch all the way to Datong in Shanxi and beyond. What you are describing is only a section of the "Wall" in its northern extremity.

Steppe Nomads are highly mobile that's why they were able to travel from edge of Machurian forest to the plains of Hungary with ease. You have to realize that Jurchen homeland didn't stretch all the way north to Arctic Circle.

Before the arrival of Russians in the area in the 1600s, the land north of the Wall that you are refering to is called Dauria (now called Transbaikal). Dauria was populated by Daur people who are shown by recent DNA test to be descendants of Khitan.

Jurchen and Khitan were traditional enemies. As Jurchen destroyed the Liao empire founded by Khitan. It's possible that the section of the Jin "Wall" that you mentioned were built to guard against the remanant of Liao.

Facing Russian pressure, especially after the Treaty of Nerchinsk in 1689 between Qing and Russian empire that give Dauria (Transbaikal) to Russia, Duar tribes migrated south where Qing emperors settle them in present day Inner Mongolia. Some Daur tribes were drafted by Qing army and send west to pacify Xinjiang. Some of these Daurs live around Tacheng (Tarbagatai or Chuguchak) in Xinjiang

Incidentally, Russian word for China (Китай, Kitay) derive from Khitan which Russians took from Mongols. It became Cathay in English and survives as the name of some Hong Kong airline.

@Jimba

Hey dude, when people pontificate with such vitriol and then go and trip themselves up at such a basic level I think it deserves a mention. James has a point but shoots himself in the foot with this ridiculous repetition of 'yu' for 'you', an oh so clever gesture that obviously takes some time to write unless his language/auto spell setting is changed in which case it is equally, if not more sad.

Furthermore, with his constant use of 'yu' he further plays into Cripe's hands.

I think Cripe is alright, mainly because he has shown James to be the fool he is. If most of you stop being so sinophobic about the people who allow you live a life you could never dream of back home you would see this.

Enjoy your ayis massage and 'talent' at being born somewhere other than China.

Regards

BJD,

Don't be too hard on Jimba and James. They exist for our amusement.

@Cao Mengde,

Quote "Incidentally, Russian word for China (Китай, Kitay) derive from Khitan which Russians took from Mongols. It became Cathay in English and survives as the name of some Hong Kong airline."

What a great finding! We have been using it all along and still use "Khitay" for "HAN ZU" privately. But of course it is prohibited in public by Chinese regime.

Russian word "Китай (Kitay)" came from the Turkic people (Uyghur, Uzbek, Kazakh, etc) of the Central Asia.

@CMD

Thanks for the history lesson.

@Heverci

The Russians have a derogatory word for the Chinese which is "Manzi" or something like that. There are two possible origins about that word. One, it could be derived from "Manchu"; or two, it could be the same derogatory word that the northern Chinese reserve for their southern "barbaric" cousins.

Heverci,

Russian word "Китай (Kitay)" came from the Turkic people (Uyghur, Uzbek, Kazakh, etc) of the Central Asia.

Presumably after Yelu Dashi imposed his rule on Uyghurs of Kara-Khanid Khanate?

Western Liao or Kara-Khitan Khanate under Yelu Dashi gave quite a bloody nose to Seljuk Turk where Sanjar the last great hope of Seljuk Empire was thoroughly defeated.

Yelu Dashi was a distinguished Confucian scholar, well versed in Chinese culture.

Yup, Central Asian Turks would probably remember his impact.

@Arjun,

"Manzi" or "Nan Man" started to gain currency under Jurchen Jin empire. It means barbarian or southern barbarian. It's used specifically for Southern Song. Mongols probably inherited the term from Jurchen Jin.

It's fitting that Russia which in recent history have replaced traditional Turko-Mongol tribes as China's northern threat would adopt this term.

@Heverci

"But of course it is prohibited in public by Chinese regime."

How the heck is the Chinese regime gonna ban use of "Khitay" in Uyghur speech as most Han cadres presumably don't know a word of Uyghur?

Someone is having fun with photoshop lately. You really love that skull, don't you? ;)
That would be nice too if there were some moderation in the comments. Reading messages full of hatred are not especially "good for karma", to quote a famous Hollywood actress.

@ BJD: Kozol wrote on being a teacher, “Pick battles big enough to matter, small enough to win.” It's your punctilious attention to detail, on a site where accuracy is so often lost to CCP rhetoric and other misguided belief that astounds me. But instead of spell checking our every word I would be more interested to know what your actual proposition is on the Xinjiang issue. If you have some opinion, please share

@ Cao Meng De,

Quote: "Presumably after Yelu Dashi imposed his rule on Uyghurs of Kara-Khanid Khanate?

Western Liao or Kara-Khitan Khanate under Yelu Dashi gave quite a bloody nose to Seljuk Turk where Sanjar the last great hope of Seljuk Empire was thoroughly defeated.

Yelu Dashi was a distinguished Confucian scholar, well versed in Chinese culture."

Seems like you have done your home work by looking at the Wikipedia.

Yes, it was suggested that "Khitay" came from "Kara-Khitay" who ruled Uyghurs after the Kara-Khanids. Yelu Dashi probably "was a distinguished Confucian scholar, well versed in Chinese culture" to you, but his imposed rule on us was one of the darkest periods of our history and we still remember it. That is also why Uyghurs willingly went under the Genghis Khan's banner to rose against the Khitans.

CDM: My interest is civil and political rights in Xinjiang. Methinks this issue is not something to laugh at but you might find it amusing if one takes your attitude in a broader context of Beijing's attitude towards minorities in Xinjiang. It is also not "sinophobic" to criticise the Chinese government. Try not to intersperse your own xenophobia into the issue.

Everyone has rights, your’s might extend to being stupid, but then you just abuse this privilege, don't you.

@ Cao Mengde,

Quote: "How the heck is the Chinese regime gonna ban use of "Khitay" in Uyghur speech as most Han cadres presumably don't know a word of Uyghur?"

How the heck were you so sure that Hans don't know Uyghur, or "Khitay" for that matter? When your cadres first arrived ET in the 50s, learning Uyghur language was sort of obligatory (it is not anymore and you know the reason) and they knew quite a lot Uyghur words, including "Khitay" ...

@Heverci

"When your cadres first arrived ET in the 50s, learning Uyghur language was sort of obligatory (it is not anymore and you know the reason)"

Really, pray tell what is the reason. I must plead ignorance on this matter.

My brother-law's parents were sent to Xinjiang in the old days. My brother-law and his borther attended elementary school there where the class was apparently mixed. He has very racist attitude against Uyghurs and Hui Muslims. It used to shock my Western bred liberal sensibility. But I am beginning to wonder if he had some legitimate reason to harbor such intense dislikes...

@jimba

I didn't say civil and political rights in Xinjiang is amusing matter, ole boy. I said YOU are an amusing fellow. And yes, you and Jimmy ole boy provide much mirth on this blog. Please carry on.

I just want the best for everyone.
Dancing, singing, melons, kebabs and camels for all.
Where exactly is Xinjiang anyway?

I would take the dancing, melons and kebabs. I don't think singing and camels are for everyone.

@Heverci

"Yelu Dashi probably "was a distinguished Confucian scholar, well versed in Chinese culture" to you, but his imposed rule on us was one of the darkest periods of our history and we still remember it. That is also why Uyghurs willingly went under the Genghis Khan's banner to rose against the Khitans."

Tsk, Tsk, Tsk.

You really ought to know your own history better.

Yelu Dashi died in 1144. In 1211 Naiman prince Kuchlug (who is Turkic by the way) usurp the Kara-Khita throne, ending the Khitan rule. It's this Nestorian Christian Turkic prince who prosecute his Muslim subject, forcing conversion into either Buddhism (his Khitan wife's religion) or Christianity. This was the major reason Uyghurs embrace Genghis Khan as liberator.
Uyghurs willingly went under the Genghis Khan's banner.

If you can't tell the difference between Yelu Dashi and Kuchlug or don't know your own history, I am beginning to see why your people have been conquered over and over again.

CMD: rightio, I'll stick to HR and you stick to historical revisionism. We can laugh at each other.

oh, and YD died in the year 1143....

There were no "Uyghur" in the Tarim basin at the time of events mentioned in the quote below from CMD. I wonder who doesn't know their history?:

"It's this Nestorian Christian Turkic prince who prosecute his Muslim subject, forcing conversion into either Buddhism (his Khitan wife's religion) or Christianity. This was the major reason Uyghurs embrace Genghis Khan as liberator.
Uyghurs willingly went under the Genghis Khan's banner."

tranceman,

"There were no "Uyghur" in the Tarim basin at the time of events"

Nice.

First I nevern metnion Tarim basin

Second,that's some claim.

would you care to enlighten us how Heverci and I are both wrong? O great teacher?

Jimba
"rightio, I'll stick to HR and you stick to historical revisionism"

Like how you edited the Wikipedia entry? Like I said, You are an Amusing fellow. Thanks for the laugh.

Yeah, Yelu Dashi died on Jimba's command in 1143 because Jimba edited the Wikipedia entry. Nice work Jimba boy!

I will eat crow. I was too hasty in accusing Jimba on editing the Wikipedia.

I just happen to check the last edit On Yelu Dashi entry and revision was about his date of death (from 1144 to 1143). I naturally assume that Jimba did it.

Just show you when you make assumptions you make an ass out of u and umptions.

I hate to say it, Jimba may be right. Yelu Dashi seem to have died on 1143.

Yelu Dashi was known as an able administrator and a man tolerant of all religions including Buddhism, Nestorian Christianity and Islam.

Tranceman,

Maybe you mean to say that Karakhanids were not really Uyghurs? I think that will depend on your view of relationship between Qarluks, Toquz Oghuz and Uyghurs. Yes for a time "Uyghur" specifically denoted Buddhists in Turfan and Hami. But we are talking about the ancestors of modern "Uyghurs" such as Heverci. But of course, you knew that, don't you?

Meh. Enough of this.