I think the strengthening of the Islamic movement in the region will grow for sure. What will change the situation, either for the better or the worse, is what the Chinese government going to do about it. If the Chinese government actually listen to the natives and allow them more freedom and rights, and treat them more like a partner, not a colonized population, it may delay some of the troubles in the area. If a high pressure strategy is used like in Tibet, troubles will come sooner, and more fierce.

The natives in western China do not have the wherewithall to secure independence due to the overwhelming military power China has over all of the nations around the region, and I won't suppose any wester power will interfere. So all the unrest won't lead to independence, unless there is major political change within China itself. But it will means substantial trouble for China, as the dissidents will bring the unrest to central and eastern China, especial major urban centers like Shanghai and Beijing.

@Tina. Maybe True Autonomy is the only solution. Do yu think the present government under CCP rule wil allow that? and Wil they learn from Tibet at present or just put the screws down harder and hope to stifle dissent by draconian law, extreme punishmnet(s), and a steady inflow of Han into the region to water down the Uyghur demographic - the smaller minorities will float in the tide.

Michaels scenario may prove prescient.

It's puzzling to see wishy-washy postings advocating that both Tibet and Xinjiang will be separated from China. Let me just try to advice those pretenders-cum-Americans that if China can hold both places for centuries, any government in China whether it's communist, socialist or democratic will never allow its territories to be negotiated. In all honesties, it's better to negotiate with the Central Government instead of stirring disturbances as in recent incidents in Lhasa. I don't see any light at the end of the tunnel for Dalai Lama to ever stand foot in Tibet. He lost the war as a result of his conspiracy with CIA years ago and now he still have no achieve anything.

Beway more enlightened Chinese thinkers even within the PRC (unlike yrself) advocate that the serious problem on China's frontiers (Xinjiang, Tibet) will only be resolved through a democratization of the country itself- it wil still be the couintry, still be China but not a dictatorship run by power clutching fascists. whats more - then and only then will the broken promises to true autonmony made by the Communists during their period of minority deception be restored to the people of Xinjiang (read Turkestan) and Tibet (not Xizang). This may be something for hardened nationalists like yourself to undersdtand. It should be easier seeing yu do not live within the dicatatorship by choice.

Here is a more interesting scenario:

Support for the Uyghurs from E. Afganistan and mountain regions of Pakistan begin to overwhelm the bing tuan in E. Turkestan. Karachi and Kabul are politically unable to do anything because they need the support of these tribal power brokers to maintain their coalition governments. The situation destabilizes to the point where Beijing then orders a full frontal offensive into these areas to quash the support basis.

Problems:
1. Russia and NATO are in Afghanistan and are committed to its stabilization and maintaining their spheres of influence (this is already happening as Russia now allows NATO to send military supply flights through Russian airspace to Afganistan). What is their response to large scale, destabilizing PLA activity in Afghanistan?

2. India and Pakistan are political adversaries but ethnically and religiously brethren, and both have short and medium range nukes. How does India respond to a large scale PLA presence in Pakistan (especially since the PLA already maintains patrol units in northern Pakistan)?

How does the PLA get over the Pamir in large numbers? Into Hunza? Or down the goat tracks of the Wakhan?

Is a zone of Military Control in the largely uninhabited Pamir knot imaginable or necessary?

Isnt there really one there now in effect anyway?

...to add to the last comment; as a means of speculation. What lay between Kashmir and Xinjiang? Largely uninhabited and extremely high mountains cut here and there by steep river valleys. These lead into China: Shimshal into Rustam etc. toward Karghilik and Yarkand; and the main valley toward Khunjerab.

In Ladakh the road leads toward Nubra and The entrance to the heavily fortified Siachen glacier before heading towards the Karakorum pass. Walls of mountains block the vale of Indian Kashmir proper from China. Both sides of the Karakorum pass have troops - Chinese and Indian and have since the little war they fought there in the 60s.

Pakistani troops are on the Hunza side- Villagers from those areas hand Uyghur escapees using the Shimashal route over to officials - who arrange for them to be returned to China.

The Wakhan remains mysterious - its a long way down to Badakhshan and may be the most porous of routes. But still high and cold- see Roland Michaud's 'Caravans to Tartary' for a good photographic depiction of the area now thinly populated by Kirghiz. On the Chinese side there is now a fence along the 'border' area regularly patrolled to keep them out and in. It is unlikely any troops could easily be marshalled into that area from Afghanistan.

Basically the geography of this area as in the days of the Great Game Fears defeats it being used by masses of troops; Even if things are bad in distant Kashmir geography shields China from that place. The present geographic defense and human surveillance manages to keep unwanted militant types out of China; and those wishing to leave illegally in.

Tajikistan may be an easier entry point than all the above.

The need for such an area would arise if only large numbers of militants from all of those areas for some reason wanted to enter China. To liberate Xinjiang? Oh Yeah and attack the pipeline... that makes things a little different. Then constant surveillance would be necessaryt from countless Chinese troops along the entirety of the imaginary pipeline. Michael may be right.

Anyway the idea of Military area of Control is novel and hu knows...

There is absolutely no way that Xinjiang will ever gain independence. I lived in southern Xinjiang for 5 years. First of all, Xinjiang is a province in China. It may be called the Uyghur Autonomous region, but that only means is that the Peoples Government positions on all levels are filled by a minority. However, it's the Party Secretary positions that have the power, they are always held by the Han. While many parts of Xinjiang may feel like the whole place is Uyghur, 40-50% of the Xinjiang's overall population is Han Chinese. In a matter of hours, the PLA can shut down Xinjiang from any domestic issues. They did the morning following the Tianamin Square massacre. I in no way condone the injustices committed by the government against the Uyghurs, but the fact is that XJ is a part of China and always will be.

Chad. Time and Tide. Time and Tide.- "Always will be" What does 'always' mean? Is history constant?

very funny!
Overrate yourselves. splittist and Terrorists.
We will kill you just like kill a flea.

Tibet is too barren, the Han people do not want to live there.
But in Xinjiang, as long as the Government does not control, the Han population will be far more than Uighur soon.

Waiting is virtue. Wait for your opponent to err. The far east has witnessed the rise and fall of world tides for several cycles, and remains in pratically the same demographic pattern as if millenia haven't passed. There are different neigbhours to the north and west, though. The large landmass tabbed as XJ has been inside three major dynasties' territories, if I remember correctly. However whenever land become populated by farmers it becomes increasingly difficult to disintegrate from the other parts. It seems the current tide is a bit eastly and China should build more dams to keep it, eh?

As a Chinese person, I think that China is very stable.

Minority rebels, compared to the 1.3 billion Chinese people, really, is not worth mentioning.

The stability of this country, in fact do not need any minorities to cooperate or support.

There are not any problems as long as Han people support.

Dear Dyn. Its amazing when certain comments are made on ths blog that a "Chinese person" like yourself will appear with the same xenophobic and chauvinist responses. Fleas, really?

Stability? At what price? The suppression of all discontent? Especially that of those evil fleas - the minorities? Hmmm? Sounds like oppression rather than stability to me ergo an artificail stability held together by fear. Anyway Ride the tide when yu can.

Time and Tide. Haha. You better have longer shelf life than healthiest Okinawans to wait this one out.

Indeed, the tide of Western dominance is receding fast. You guys had a good run for last 400 years. But tide is turning.

"How does the PLA get over the Pamir in large numbers?"

Same way that the Sino-Goguryeo general Gao Xianzhi conquered Gilgit in 747 AD.

If you had done your homework on Aurel Stein(I don't expect you to be literate enough to read Xing Tang Shu ), you would've known that.

Btw, I am just kidding about PLA replicating the amazing feat of Gao XianZhi (or Kao Hsien-chih, or Go Seon-ji in Korean, not the first among conquered people to serve the interest of Chinese empire, and not the last).

Railroad to Kashgar and Karakoram Highway will do just fine. I am surprised to know that someone who claimed intimate knowledge about New Dominion do not know existence of such infrastructure.

But seriously there is little need to deploy PLA beyond the border. Unless US and India actually plan to use airbases in Kirghizstan to fly sorties east...

Yes but that article out of the old Geographical Journal does it not question just how many Chinese (if they were indeed Chinese - Tang armies in Turkestan's '4 garrisons' were usually comprised of Turkic troops led by Korean generals were they not?)did go over. Please correct me if Im wrong. No one can honestly rely just on the Tang Xu which I have in Chinese and in French translation(sorry about that old boy).

Also my point would be. They could go over much easier then than now. No machinery etc. less troops. Probabaly tougher too. Probably cold-conditioned Turks too. and who were they after in there? Were they not Tibetans who struggled with Tang over mastery of the Tarim basin? and who often kicked butt there. If we gonna get into history then tell the whole story. Wish I had that article then I could answer these questions myself. I read it so long ago. Yu would do better reading Beckwiths Tibet's Central Asian Empire. The myth of Tang Glory in Central Asia is just that - a myth - their 'supremacy' was always challenged and they were often in retreat. but for their mercenaries they would have had no success at all. ill leave it here...now

Sorry my last post was sent b4 yr last was visible...but...if the US and India did fly sorties east from bases in Krgzstan where and which territory beyond the border do yu envision would China be stationing troops in? If kgzstan is controlled by these other countries airforces? The railaway to Kashgar if it extends into Kirghizstan could be China's greatest strategic arm - but way too easy to sabaotague as is the K'korum hiway. I trust yu have travelled it into Pakistan on occasion and know its vulnerability? Do yu understand the topography of where yu are directing your imagination Cao?

Great! An argument over internet with a Francophone armchair general. Sorry, not my cup of tea.

Read your countryman René Grousset's The Empire of the Steppes: A History of Central Asia. A real classic. That should correct some of your foolish notions.

Now excuse me, I have some freedom fries to attend to.

Cao. Zig Heil!

Afterthought after obligatory fascist salute:

Grousset was one of the main perpetrators of the Tang Glory in Central Asia illusion. A Beautiful poetic and dated sinocentric account. One does not have to be French to read French dumbo.

flea, yes!
you do not think the situation in China is stable, no problem, It's your viewpoint.
China's concessions on certain issues is to create a better international environment, its purpose is to a strong China.
If so let some people mistakenly thought that the Chinese Government will make concessions on sovereignty and territorial issue, you are too naive.

Do not argue about to which nation XinJiang belong, the problem has not been any meaning.
The biggest fact is that XinJiang is NOW territory of China and there are so many Han Chinese.

Yes, yes a lovely colonial possession (territory) for the 'so many' Han to wanr in. I agree this 'problem has not been any meaning.'

I've been saying that the Boxer Rebellion will happen again, and many have turned away. But now it is happening!

Threats against foreigners/French in Beijing:
http://www.zhongnanhaiblog.com/2008/04/fear-and-loathing-in-china.htm

Even China' s own para-olympic torch bearer is being branded a "race enemy" for calling for restraint by the Chinese people:

http://shanghaiist.com/2008/04/22/anti-french-anti-carrefour-fury-bubble-over.php?gallery1919Pic=19#gallery

"Another more recent story relates to Jin Jing, our Paralympian heroine who had bravely defended the Olympic torch from some pro-Tibetan protestor in Paris during the torch relay. ESWN tells of how she has become the greatest traitor of the Chinese nation literally overnight for merely suggesting that people should be careful about the Carrefour boycott, because the many Chinese employees of that company would be the first to suffer."

http://www.zonaeuropa.com/200804b.brief.htm#030
http://www.bullog.cn/blogs/qianliexian/archives/127165.aspx

The Western powers, India, Japan and South Korea must rise to the occasion to contain then dissect bad, bad China once and for all!

Only half-growns, or homeless+moneyless+fearnaught brats or maniacs, or paid agents are fanning up stuff like boxers. Nowadays people have pretty enough property to fear of losing. Elderly people worry about their children and family, mid-aged and young(in their 20s) worry about money, while kids worry about nothing. There won't be boxers, not even cute red guards. It is just a big party of refreshment going on there.

Gao

In case you do know, nanheyangrouchuan or stinky lamb kebab is a famous troll on China blogsphere. He had spammed the same post on quite a few other China related forum already.

Take pity on the guy, China gives meaning to his existence.

At least his ranting is quite amusing unlike certain Francophone upstairs

@Cao. You didnt answer the questions I asked of You in the above post. This is quite obvious to all. Can You?

@ Cao, again:

BTW, does your vision of a satisfied and affluent Chinese middle class reach throughout the various stratas of Chinese (PRC) society. How about the more than poor minority peasants who do not benefit form the so callled economic miracle? Surely this is no more than a new national myth to justify the party and make the strident ultra nationalists feel good? Could you answer this as well seeing it is directly related to your comments. Or as usual shall we write off your comments as unsubstantiated?

above post should read:

@Gao

I get Cao and Gao confused tho Gao is less extreme (and less of a Francophobe - France = new public enemy No. 1)

BTW, does your vision of a satisfied and affluent Chinese middle class reach throughout the various stratas of Chinese (PRC) society. How about the more than poor minority peasants who do not benefit from the so called economic miracle? Surely this is no more than a new national myth to justify the party and make the strident ultra nationalists feel good? Could you answer this as well seeing it is directly related to your comments. Or as usual shall we write off such comments as unsubstantiated?

to James,
Are you a Chinese(Han or Ugyhur)?
or a foreigner(Westerners or Turks)?
If you do not mind, please tell me.

colonial possession (territory)
=====================
When Han Chinese lived in XinJiang, there were no Ugyhurs.

Dear Dyn why is categorization on the basis of ethnicity so important to you? does that help you?

Acccording to Cao I am French; but what is a Frenchman? Maybe I am Algerian/ French.

What is a Chinese: Han or Yao or Tuzu?

If so are all equal?

Han are really Chinese right?

Other nationalities just "belong" to the Chinese (Han ) "nation".

Everyone knows the 56 harmonious nationalities dream is just a fiction:

As yu yourself point out Xinjiang will become Han because of in-migration unless the government stops it. Yu have said this

so tell me what that stands for?

I'll give yu a hint if yu dont mind my presumption

Its called Genocide according to the United Nations Convention

Are you guilty of approving of such ideas or are your comments only detached realist observations?

Yu guess my ethnicity as Foreigner or Chinese or whatever. Its not important. Truth is important.

and please answer my question. Why do yu want to know and for who?

@dyn.

I spose yu are referring to the 2 Han dynasties by saying 'when Han Chinese lived in Xinjiang there were no Uyghurs.',?

Good point.

but first

it werent called xinjiang then.

two. there were few Han. Ban Chao was a genocidal maniac who gained submission by decapitation then went away left the city states to themselves.

the inhabitants were not Turks as were the later Uyghur and spoke Indo-European languages but are still counted as the ancestors of the present Uyghur oasis inhabitants of Xinjiang - yes the green - eyed fair headed ones.

which brings up the question Dyn - what is now a Uyghur?

They claim many ancestries and histories legitimately through association over millenia with "place"- the one yu call the "New Jiang." I dont like the word Dominion- Frontier is better tho Jiang does seem to indicate peripheral lands now being brought under imperial governance.

By the way the people who lived in those places also did not say they were living in the Han dynasty: They had Persian calendars.

Han were only ever random visitors to the Xiyu during the Han. and less so until the Tang: 4 garrison departure ca. 750; and then for a "1000" years absent until 1759 when Qing Manchu not Han took over. Yes for a 1000 years ( what was going on there then?)

It was not until Zou Zang Tang's Henan Bully boys moved in enmasse in the wake of the 1870s and the New Jiang was proclaimed to give Han meaning to the 1759 Manchu annexation that the Han could be reckoned to begin to really be there.

Is all of this going over your head?

Im responding to your comment

I am French (if yu like)

@James Hughes,

At time of Han Dynasty, the Huns is common enemy. The Caucasian lived in oasis cities are benefited from China trade by moving jade East and moving silk West. After Huns drives Yuzi from Shan'xi and Gansu, they are more than willing to accept dominance of Han military power for protection. It is understandable because China is the source of their profit.

So you can understand the typical Chinese method of Tuntian--an old version of Bingtuan. Those settled soldiers eventually lost their connection back home after Han Dynasty faded away. Then we understand after that the original Han people if there is even such a term for ethnicity, probably 80-90% of them moved South to today's Jiangxi and Fujian areas. And the whole North China were filled in by all kinds of nomad people. Huns, Turks, Xianbeis, Tubas, Qiangs, Wushuns, Dis, Jies, etc. you name it. The color of eyes, hairs and skins are as vast from one end to another end.

Then after 300 years, a New Han was born with Tang Dynasty. The Sino-Turk Tang was able to defeat their biggest challenge of Turks with assist from Uighur. Then Tang with its strong army full of Turks and Uighur took over Xiyu. And also take over that Chinese Han settler country of Gaochang (Turpan area). The invading army was led by a great and brave young Uighur general.

Now turn things a little fast. We knew Uighur finally built its great empire in Mongolia and used its military power to protect Tang as much as possible. Meanwhile Xiyu poor Caucasian brothers and sisters were under terror of mighty Tibetan brothers and sisters.

Short after we had Uighur ran all the directions for their life, and some went East and merged into Mongols. Some ran to South and merged into Hans. Some ran to South-West and ended up as Yughur. And some ran to West into Xiyu as today's Uighur.

Then finally we got Khitan to rule it from West Liao, and then we had Mongols took over until Manchu came in.

During the time. Islam converted many. So some of Hans and Mongols who accepted Islam merged into Today's Uighur.

The difference with Zuo Zhong Tang and his Hunan nasty boys to change the rule from more Confucian civil administration from Manchu-Mongol style military rule.

Then let's not forgot the recent history.

1. Chinese communist forces were largely welcomed by Uighur.
2. Bingtung was more a tool to fend Russian encorchment. As we knew the North Xinjiang is more for Oirat and Khazak then Uighur.
3. Maybe it was a mistake for China to call everyone Uighur when people more comfortable with Kashgarian, Hhotian, etc.?
4. Maybe there are too much focus on ancient Uighur's militant heritage but not Caucasian commerce heritage?
5. Instead of jade and silk, now you have oil/metal go East and electronics/goods go West. If Uighur cannot benefit from this, well, you need to have a soul searching to face your ancestors who are great traders all time.

Thanks Sha I agree with a lot yu have to say here but what are yu really saying or trying to say?

These points below either make no sense or need revision, rethinking:

"Meanwhile Xiyu poor Caucasian brothers and sisters were under terror of mighty Tibetan brothers and sisters."

Where do yu get this type of language and historical interpretation from?

Whats this "brothers and sisters" stuff about all through your narrative? Like the present brothers and sisters myth of the one big happy Chinese family(of 56 nationalities) is applicable back in to the past of the ancestors of todays Minority people. Sha this is known as an 'anachronism' or an 'interpolation'. It is inaccurate.

"Tibetan Terror" ?

Tang (Turkic) armies didnt strike terror ALSO ?

Han armies didnt strike terror into the poor Caucasian 'brothers and sisters' lives?

Those bad bad Tibetans always the terrorist eh?

Was Ban Chao according to this reasoning a practitioner of terror? How about his little pyramids of severed heads. How do yu interpret them - kind gesture from Big friendly brother to poor Caucasian brother and sisters?

Then let's not forgot the recent history.

"1. Chinese communist forces were largely welcomed by Uighur."

unproven. No true narrative of Uyghur resistance can emerge in modern China PRC presently but resistance is mentioned in Chinese publicationsjust the same ; usually in the context of its suppression and its root as the source of the present 3 evils. This statement yu have bought is pure CCP propaganda. Hotan for instance had many resistance uprisings against PRC. Fleeing Turkestanis (yes, Hotan and Kashgar people = modern Uyghur) were still exiting out of Karghilik and Tashkorgan well into the early 1950s. Why didnt the XUAR form in 1949-50? but in 1955? It took the Communists at least 5 years to suppress, trick and cojole the Turkestanis into submission, murder the landlords, imprison their followers and steal their lands. Of this some peasants would have no doubt been happy. but not for long...what year was the Great Leap Forward? Was it followed shortly after by something called the Great Cultural Revolution. Oh how happy were the little brothers and sisters in those times Sha.? Oh how great is big and noble Brother Han Mao.

"4. Maybe there are too much focus on ancient Uighur's militant heritage but not Caucasian commerce heritage?"

Very Good point

5. Instead of jade and silk, now you have oil/metal go East and electronics/goods go West. If Uighur cannot benefit from this, well, you need to have a soul searching to face your ancestors who are great traders all time.

There is no benefit without personal freedom, dignity, and autonomy. Yr cheap Chinese goods cannot make people happy especially while oil and minerals are stolen in return for them. Really what kind of trade deal is this?

Are yu so shallow of perception and materilaistic of spirit that yu think cheap electronics will satisfy people.

Silk was used to beautify people in their own traditional costumes- yes little Caucasian brothers and sisters. BTW, the Tarim basin (pendi) produced its own silk and exported it as it still does. It didnt need Han silk. Jade went east and west from Hotan as early as the Xia dynasty- thats right- their civilization is also that old.

So what are yu saying: Uighur today like my ancestors should be thankful for Han imperilaism, colonialism and cheap goods? just give us thew oil and minerals and we will give yu junk plus lots and lots of big brothers and siters to c ompete with yu in trade at an unfair advantage? Be happy!
If yu complain yu are a separtist, terrorist, splittist flea and will be exterminated?

My, thanks for the history "story".

@ Sha.

How long were the Han dynasty 'tuntian' in place for? Read your records Id like too know?

@James,

You misread my comments. When I talked about brothers and sisters, are not in a happy Chinese family fashion, but in a "we all damn human-being" fashion.

About the terror unleshed from mighty Tibetan herds, you can look on the ancient discovery around edge of Kunlung Mountain. If you look on the history:

1. When Huns, Khitans, Mongols, and Manchu came over, they were simply for control through proxy. That means if you surrender quicly, they will restore your leaders a title of official. As long as their cut of Silk Road commerce is satified, then you should be OK with your way of life. But for Tibetans, they put humiliation on local leaders. Even though the local leaders got certan ranks inside the nobel system, which means nada when a Tibetan offical showed up even though the local leader had a higher rank than the guy.

2. Second reason is that there is a hot fight between Buddhism and Bon in Tibet itself. The Bon related Tibetan troops went hard on Buddhist local population.

3. Han Troop was behavior different than other nomad herds (not because Han is nicer) because Han troops were protecting the Silk Road that is the economic lifeline. Nomads want to get their cuts on the trade. Han didn't need to do that.

About recent history, I didn't see big scale battes in Xinjiang. We did know all fightings in Khampa Tibetan areas and Yi areas. Small scale? Yes. There are many factions of forces in Xinjiang. Remaining Nationalist, Russia, Seperation movement, etc.

I could be wrong, but I read that silkworm came to Khotian due to a Tang princess bring it in for her husband, the local King. But what I mean for the Uighur:

The New Silk Road is here. Oil/Minirals come from Central Asia(Khazakistan, Afghanistan, Russia, Iran, Africa-through Pakistan), and Chinese goods will flow over to those countries in opposite direction. If you guys cannot get your gene of great traders of all time in action, then you need to say something to your ancesters.

@Sha:

Quote: "The New Silk Road is here. Oil/Minirals come from Central Asia(Khazakistan, Afghanistan, Russia, Iran, Africa-through Pakistan), and Chinese goods will flow over to those countries in opposite direction. If you guys cannot get your gene of great traders of all time in action, then you need to say something to your ancesters."

May be the "new" silk road is here. But for the benefit of whom? Seems like you're living in your own small world and don't know the reality in Eastern Turkestan, or pretending that you don't know. I'm Uyghur, I lived most of my life there and I know what EXACTLY the reality is: the reality is that CCP still controls everything there and Han Chinese controls CCP. I have first hand experience and know how hard it is for local Uyhurs go get bank loans to start up some businesses. In terms of international trade, everybody except you knows how hard it is to get a Chinese passport for an ordinary Uyghur, to go outside. And lets do not talk about political pressures to those peoples who managed to go abroad and who are still in ET... Despite these seemingly unsurmountable hardships, Uyghurs are doing their best and having some success: we have large trade presence in central Asian countries, middle east, Turkey, etc ...

Han are really Chinese right?
=================================
Do not play with words.
Whether this country is called "People Republic of China" or "People Republic of Somewhere" , it is NOT important.
We Han, Uygur and Tibetan belong to the same country, this is truely important.
to you westerners, maybe that
Han = Chinese
Wei = Ugyhur
Zang = Tibetant
But to me, Chinese = Han + Wei + Zang.

Geographically, China is in isolation from other parts of the world.
In this land, living in the Han, Uyghur(Turk) and Tibetan, Mongolian. Only certain times in history, the Turks and Mongolian left this land.

which brings up the question Dyn - what is now a Uyghur?
=============================
today, Ugyhur are yellow, white and mix of yellow and white. but mainly in yellow.

Genocide
==============================
we do not force family planning upon Ugyhur.
Can you give me reason why we Han should not live in xinjiang?

arguing that which land belong to which nationality is no sense at all.
Because since human leaved Africa, they are always migrating from here to there.
in accordance with your views, then I take it that the Turks in Xinjiang killed Indo-European languages speaking indigenous people?

Earth's land belongs to all mankind, not the private property of any nation.
As a human being, he has the right to live in any piece of land on earth.
Makingnatural resources such as land private property is very shameful.
Han people can live in Xinjiang Uygur people can also live in other parts of China.

地球上的土地是属于全人类的，而不是哪个民族的私有财产。
作为一个人，他有权生活在地球上的任何一块土地。
把自然资源占为己有是十分可耻的。
汉族人可以生活在新疆，维族人同样可以生活在中国其他地方。

@dyn:

First of all, learn to spell our name, Uyghur, properly, which is not that difficult. See, even westerners (外国“鬼子“, according to you) can spell it without a problem.

Secondly, who told you that "you" (i.e., 汉族人 = 中国政府，again according to you) "do not force family planning upon Uyghur"? Better educate yourself. We have family planning, only that we're allowed to have two children instead of one. But when compared to the systematic, PLANNED and whole scale migration of Han Chinese to ET (5% in 1950s, 50% now), one can not see the benefit of having just one extra child.

to Heverci
既然你会说汉语咱就说汉语，我英语水平差。
不要自作聪明地在外国后边加上“鬼子”俩字，我想你能分得清外国侵略者和外国人这两个词。
uyghur，好，但我怎么拼写并不重要，因为我拼错的不只这一个词，你能明白我意思就行。

请你告诉我为什么汉族人不能往新疆移民？政府组织的又怎么样？移民可不是被迫去新疆的。
同样是中国人，给少数民族的待遇，远远要比汉族高，你们不觉得受宠若惊还心怀怨恨，只能让人想到忘恩负义这个词。
很多像你一样的少数民族依仗着国家政策的优待，到处欺负汉族群众，这才是汉族人讨厌你们的根源。
没去过新疆的人，都曾经以为维吾尔族热情好客、民风纯朴（这你要感谢我们什么都遮拦的政府），真正接触了这后才会感觉到一个字“坏”，特别是那些会说汉话的维维。

@dyn:

"Earth's land belongs to all mankind, not the private property of any nation."

Tell this to your CCP, better yet to yourself. What do you feel if Japan occupies China, as she did in 1930s, because of the need for natural resources and starts to dump their extra population and asks local Chinese to learn Japanese, since the Chinese language is inferior?

日本人可以像任何一个中国人一样生活在中国，前提是这个日本人不去屠杀中国人。
如果一个生活在中国的中国人杀害中国人，我们也会像对待杀害中国人的日本人一样对待他。
记住，没有人强迫维吾尔人学汉语！！！
学校要求学汉语，那很正常，请你想象，如果不是汉族人，新疆会有那么多学校吗？既然你们想进入汉族人的教育体系接受教育，你们就必须会汉语，这很自然，没有什么可说的。

非我族类，其心必异。
看来这话太对了。
让人类大同的理想超越狭隘的民族偏见，太难了。
在实现全人类大同的同时又能保持民族的独立性，你觉得可能吗？
经济一体化、地球村，民族差异的消融是必然的。
或许全世界人民真正成为一个民族（通过普遍的混血）才是令人欣慰或者唯一可能的结局。

世界上原本就没有民族，我们都来自同一个祖先，只是因为走散了。

To those of you who don't read Chinese, let me translate dyn's comments.

Quote: "
请你告诉我为什么汉族人不能往新疆移民？政府组织的又怎么样？移民可不是被迫去新疆的。
同样是中国人，给少数民族的待遇，远远要比汉族高，你们不觉得受宠若惊还心怀怨恨，只能让人想到忘恩负义这个词。
很多像你一样的少数民族依仗着国家政策的优待，到处欺负汉族群众，这才是汉族人讨厌你们的根源。
没去过新疆的人，都曾经以为维吾尔族热情好客、民风纯朴（这你要感谢我们什么都遮拦的政府），真正接触了这后才会感觉到一个字“坏”，特别是那些会说汉话的维维。"

Translation:

Tell me, why Han Chinese can't immigrate to Xinjiang? What's wrong with government organized (migration)? Immigrants are not forced to go to Xinjiang.

As citizens of China, minority nationalities get much more benefit than Han Chinese. You guys get special treatment but still hate us, which can remind us the word "ungrateful" (忘恩负义).

A lot of minorities like you intimidate Han Chinese everywhere, relying on govt's special treatment. That is the reason why Han Chinese hate you.

Those people who never been to Xinjiang thought Uyghurs are very hospitable and honest people (thanks to our stupid gov that blocks everything). After the interaction, I now realize that you are "bad" guys, especially those WEI WEI (维维，degeratory word indicating Uyghurs, similar to "negro" for an african american) who can speak Han Chinese.

@ dyn:

Quote:

"记住，没有人强迫维吾尔人学汉语！！！
学校要求学汉语，那很正常，请你想象，如果不是汉族人，新疆会有那么多学校吗？既然你们想进入汉族人的教育体系接受教育，你们就必须会汉语，这很自然，没有什么可说的。
Translation: remember, no body forced Uyghurs to study Han Chinese!!! It is normal that schools require to learn Han Chinese. Think about it, without Chinese, how can Xinjiang have that many schools? Since you guys want to get into HAN CHINESE educational system to get educated, you must learn Han Chinese. This is natural, nothing to be talked about".

Again, go and educate yourself with the reality in Eastern Turkestan. We used to have a systematic Uyghur language education system, from elementary education to college level. Thanks to the recent policy of your government, Uyghur education is being eradicated in the disguise of "bilingual education", which is in reality is a single, Chinese language education forced upon us.

Having said that, I don't oppose to learn Han Chinese or any other language for that matter for the purpose of enriching myself. However, this has to be done based on equality and mutual respect. I never accept forced assimilation, which is exactly what's happening now in ET.

@Dyn

"Makingnatural resources such as land private property is very shameful.
Han people can live in Xinjiang Uygur people can also live in other parts of China."

Actually it is not easy for Uyghur people to live in Inner China. They are harrassed all over China. Especially in the larger cities like Guanzhou and Shanghai.

You once again show your complete ignorance of reality in your own country. What dream land do you live in? what lies have you accepted as(convenient) truth?

On that matter how many Han without legal Hukou are allowed to roam freely about Xinjiang as they wish without any governemnt interference. How many illegals are jammed into the shanty towns around Urumqi railway station?

Why are the Uyghur shanty towns in that city where Uyghur economic immigrants from rural Xinjiang end up often systematically policed and their inhabitants sent packing, penniless home to their poverty in the south jiang?

What do you really know Dyn?

It is interesting to see the Han Chinese spouting the same cr*p about Uyghurs and Tibetans that many American whites say about African-Americans and Native Americans: "Why aren't they grateful for what we do for them? They have it so easy. They are stupid and inferior."

Oh well, at least it is an improvement over the past when they used to genuinely believe that the Uyghurs and Tibetans "loved" them. Yeah, right. I've been to Xinjiang and I've seen how much the Uyghurs "love" the Chinese. About as much as my ex-wife loves me!

to Heverci:
first, thanks for your translations.

We used to have a systematic Uyghur language education system, from elementary education to college level.
===================================
好，那我就姑且承认你所谓的美好的从启蒙一直到大学阶段的维语教育曾经存在的真实性。
但请问你，如果没有以汉语为主的学校，会有那么多维族人有机会接受教育吗？恐怕教育仅仅是少数非常聪明的人以及富人子弟才能享受的东西吧。
汉语授课怎么了？如果没有汉语授课，你认为还会有那么多的教育资源吗？
塔吉克人在维语学校上学，除了塔吉克语还要学说你们维语，难道你要说这是维吾尔族对塔吉克人实行的有计划的文化灭绝？
对于一个民族的发展来说，落后民族学习所他所处地方先进民族的语言是一件很正常也很重要的事情。
所以汉族人学了汉语还要学习英语。
所以维吾尔学了维语还要学汉语、英语。
所以塔吉克学了塔吉克语还要学维语、汉语、英语。
双语教学太重要了，因为先进的知识不是本民族的，所以我们要学习。
中国高校中研究生阶段绝大多数课程都是双语形式的（英语课间+汉语讲义），我也没听说有谁因为讲义是英语的而不满。
因为我们知道，我们的目的不是语言，而是语言所承载的先进知识。

to James:

On that matter how many Han without legal Hukou are allowed to roam freely about Xinjiang as they wish without any governemnt interference. How many illegals are jammed into the shanty towns around Urumqi railway station?
======================================
请原谅，我可没看出来在面对警察的时候，我们的维吾尔族同胞处于比汉族人更不利的境地。
相反，维吾尔族小偷在全国各主要城市的街上行窃如入无人之境。
I have not found that in the face of the police, Uyghur people is in a more disadvantageous position than Han.
On the contrary，Uyghur thieves burglary in the streets almost all major cities in the country just like there are no one.

@Sha

a little more re:

"Then finally we got Khitan to rule it from West Liao, and then we had Mongols took over until Manchu came in."

So as we know Liao were not a Han group but Khitan from Manchuria way. Hmmm...Chinese dynasty?

but my point is during the 1000 years roughly from the departure of the 4 garrisons out of the Tarim basin ca. 750 and the 1759 Manchu annexation yu see the area ruled by Mongols?

Hmm...intersting because during the Ming (a truly Han dynasty) Chinese didnt get beyond the Hami/Gansu borderland; and then in small numbers as traders. Bogus tribute missions were sent to the Ming court through Hami to keep the illusion alive the emperor was the ruler of the world. The Central Asians played the game. Timurids did as well. It was in their benefit they liked the gifts the emperor gave them as reward for playing his little tribute game so every Chinese at home could still believe in him and themselves as superior; but the Central Asians must have been laughing and China is perhaps lucky that Tamerlane died enroute to China otherwise...history would have been very diffent.

The rest of present day Xinjiang was ruled by Moghuls and hence it was known as Moghulistan. They were Muslims. Moghuls were direct descendants of Chagatai, Chingis Qa'an's second son. Ming were not in the picture. Han were not in the picture from SONG to late Qing. Islam ruled Turkestan through Qarakhanid Turkic kings and later Moghul kings and then Sufi potentates with various ancestries leading to the prophet and also Chingis Qa'an. apart from the flimsy Han dynasty and its murderous history in Central Asia (OH THOSE BARABARIC XIONGNU!!!!) and the deserted temporaray tun tian COLONIES, there is only really a Han history there in terms of popular imagination. Periodic. Spasmodic. Despotic and neurotic...sorry but well look at the Chinese warlords who ran Xinjiang in the early 20th. century, neurotic?

That Han presence there has never achieved its historic purpose- assimilation and possesdsion - is evidenced by the still strong Uyghur voice of today representative of all the ancestries of the oassis dwellers of the past- thats the easiest way to understand Uyghur historical consciuosness. or civilizatioanl consciousness.

Their history is not "Han" history although their history is part of Chinese history. Chinese history is also part of their greater history.

as afar as tuntian etc in Turkestan as a means of justification. Central Asians could claim China on the same logical basis in terms of their special quarters within say the city of Changan during the Tang as well as other times and at other places. We had our own colony there therefore China belongs to Samarkand and our Sogdian ancestors. China is now known as "New Sogdia." Lets not get talking about the Xiongnu tribal components or the dispersal of the Uighur out of Mongolia by the Kirghiz in miid 8th. century. Lets not start talking about TIBETAN history either Sha...

@Dyn.

I refrained in my last reply post to one of your missive from saying 'I bet yu believe all Uyghur are criminals' as I didnt want to sound tooo provocative...but of course yu believe that--How did I know????

and look at the way yu use it against them...sorry, but yu are a snivelling little prejudiced racist...this is obvious...deluded yes...but just the same...yu really do not deserve pity when attitudes like yours are universally manifest against Uyghurs and others in China as a rationale for their supppression and disempopwerment as people. Yu do the higher and more noble aspects of Chinese culture no service yu give it no credit.

Lets hear some Uyghur voices about how they are discriminated against. then Dyn yu can either put up or shut up...

说汉族人压迫少数民族，扯淡去吧，我的亲身经历告诉我，在面对一个享有特权的维吾尔族流氓时，我们汉族人只能装孙子。
我们对于这种因为有特权而欺负人的少数民族的不满就如同我们仇恨那些依仗权势欺负穷人的官僚和富人一样。
said that Hans oppression of minorities, Nonsense, my personal experience tells me that in the face of a privileged Uygur hooligans, what we Han Chinese can do is only be acting like his son.

We hate the privileged Uygur who bully Han, just like we hate rich people who bully poor.

to James:
My English is poor, I can not express myself fully.
OR
You are an idiot.

Dyn I hope your wish is fulfilled and your projections turn to flesh before your eyes: and that wherever you go Uyghur hooligans will confront you at every turn; even in your dreams evil Uyghur hooligans will haunt you, pick your pockets, sell your sisters, call you names, bully the poor little innocent Dyn. just for being Chinese. Oh Yu are so persecuted and misunderstood by idiots like me:

Dyn do yu still live in China?

If not, like I suspect, its OK - the bad Uygur hooligans will not be able to hurt yu. Its OK.

@dyn:

Quote: "但请问你，如果没有以汉语为主的学校，会有那么多维族人有机会接受教育吗？恐怕教育仅仅是少数非常聪明的人以及富人子弟才能享受的东西吧。(trans: let me ask you, without the Chinese language schools, how is it possible for Uyghurs to get educated? (In that case) I'm afraid that education is something that only very talented or very rich people can enjoy ...)

What kind of #@%&tty logic is this? As if our language is not capable of educating ourselves and only Chinese is "superior" enough to be used as a language of instruction ... Well, I was educated in Uyghur and learned your language while I was a college student ...

everyone everyone, lets get something straight here, there is no genocide, if there was, you can call american treatment of black genocide.

for the uighurs who want to get a head and learn chinese, whats wrong with that? its like the same old argument, when black people want to come up in america, other black people they call them sell outs, and then some crazy black panther party people say, white people are committing genocide on us. same argument, as the uighur argument and its just as tired and lame.

if anything i think young han chinese are abandoning their culture more for western culture, than i think uighurs are abandoning their culture for han culture.

but when a han chinese learns english its ok, its good
when a uighur learns mandarin, omg its genocide.
such weird standards applied by white people.

stop with the over blown crying, there are bigger issues in the world. there is no genocide here. voluntary assimilation is not genocide.

James

Yes it would be convenient to use a font to distinguish G from C at the first glance but it is no big deal. I do not go extreme since the id(s) with large number of posts simply cannot be persuaded so there is no point in trying. For those concerned about the less wealthy 60%+ rural chinese population, I would say they haven't developed interest in issues like the Olyxxxx or Tixxx and they won't react to democrazy fighters or patrioteers, in 89' or now. Therefore it is almost safe exclude them from the revelry as long as they don't live in the troubled area. Btw, I have quite a few relatives that belong to this 60%+ catogery and they feel they are on the way up rather than down. It is hard to provide equal facility to every corner of the vast land given the current accumulation level (we don't smuggle opium or rob an ancient country an amount equal to 100 times of our current GDP through war indemnity, do we?) and goods price Americans are willing to pay, plus the such righteous human right slogans like "let's the monkeys keep their way of tradition". Why not denote all the spent savings to the poor if one is so CONCERNED about their living conditions? Talk is too cheap to resist, eh?

Did I use the fantasy word mid-class at all? Look, J. still thought I did b/c is just natural to J. regardless whatever I really said. I was talking about urban people. (or people with urban residency, to be more exact)

When a person hears someone trying to lecture him it is natural to expect the lecturer to exhibit somewhat equal virtue/record to qualify his/her understanding. Eyebrows are raised if that virtue isn't found. btw, I don't remember lecturing others has ever been regarded moral in the Chinese mind set. I could be wrong but it will be hard to make a proof.

Schools with pu3tong1hua4 are encouraged, so what? Expect college faculty suddenly start talk in Wei2wu2er3yu3 and all business get done in Turkish? For all the fatty beef in anglo-sphere I bet schools, at least in China, are set up to give skills, qualify for work and other pragmatic goals rather than cultural faerie stories. Stick to any regional language as one wishes and there are persuasive guns in back.

sorry I missed a 'no' in the last sentence. if the post can be edited it is good to add it in front of 'persuasive'. as the punishment for such incompetence I will self-censor myself for 10 days.

@ Gao thanks for the time spent on yr post. edited or undedited I couldnt really understand what yu were trying to say- it was all garbled and full of pithy little sayings and allusions to 60% this and that and relatives somewhere I do not know where. and weirder ones: "let's the monkeys keep their way of tradition" Huh??? and strange allusions to the opium war- when are yu guys ever gonna get over that?

that all went over my head.

self censor if yu like dont think it makes much difference. whatever I guess yu are trying to honestly get some point across in a mild and sensible tone...that is the 60% rural class think things are OK; are politically ignorant and dont care as long as they see themselves in economic terms as being upwardly mobile.?

But...

60% isnt it higher dont try and tell us 40% of China is affluent- thats rot. amyway in the past it has been from the rural quarters of dissatisfaction that ChaNge and revolution have come to China - are yu to tell me it may not BE so again?

@ jesse jackson.

the young Han are abandoning their culture and taking up western culture. The young Uyghur are taking up the same hybrid western culture from their Han peers.

Thats the way its transmitted. Its all the same trash. the same image. Modern Han culture is a hybrid - its not original. what is the Han culture that they are abandoning that of the Cultural Revolution; or Confucianism? Communist Chinese culture is also a hybrid of western political concepts and Maoist distortions and accomodations. Han culture. What is it they are abandoning and for what?

The Uygur road to modernity from tradition (which is still strong and in many ways more ancestral than despiritualized modern Han communist culture) is unfortunately through adoption and adaption of that hybrid Han modern culture. Its global. Its American. Its Hong Kong...its benneton...its all that stuff...what culture is that? and can yu please use your Han name.

Development makes Uyghur grateful????

http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/politics/international_politics/its+not+just+tibet+/2073147

So, everybody now seems to agree that the earliest inhabitants of Xinjiang were Caucasian people. Is that just based on the recent archeological finds? Is there any historical record of that?

Try the Han dynastic histories for some descriptions of teh peopels of the Traim basin. Do you differentiate between archaeological and historical records?

Thanks, James. But that is not satisfactory to me yet. I have neither Han dynasty recods, nor do I read Chinese. Can you cite any specific references in English? If not, the recent archeological finds may well be the first evidence. As for the archeological vs. written historical records, I will agree with you that former does become part of the latter in course of time. But that still does not answer my question as to which came first.

Try Hulsewe's translation into English of Han histories pertaining to the Traim basin and Central Asia.

Im not sure whyat yu mean by which came first?

Chinese accounts (such as Hulsewe, or whatever) most likely will say that there were
"barbarians" in those regions when the Hans first arrived, but won't say what their physical characteristics were. So, that will not indicate if the inhabitants were Caucasoids, Mongoloids, or mixed, for that matter. The Chinese are not as good as the Westerners in defining race: they refer to all outsiders as "barbarians". So, I surmise there was no written historical reference to "Europoid" peoples in the Tarim during the pre-Han era. Correct me if I am wrong.

Have you actulalt read Hulsewe? The descriptions?

I just want to ad something to the "chinese language education" which is falsely called as bilingual education to confuse people and hide the original intention of the government.
Uyhurs might able to accept education in chinese language if the education is not all about how great is chinese (han) people are, if the chinese education system curently forced upon are not meant for brain washing, imposing han chinese culture and han chinese value, not trying to make minority people feel inferior.
Besides, chinese education system is conservative, inhuman and mechanical, it does not meant to teach the real value of the life, neither it can help students fully develope a healthy personality, or let them expose their potentiality. that's why even han chinese can have greater success when they go to a free country to get education.

Please don’t delete this MSG.

Warning: The following are just fake, don’t think they are true, they are just a fake story for fun; if something similar takes place in future, and take them as a coincident.

1:30 am, 05/21/08

with help of tibetan side of PLA, the armed Tibetan monk in Sichuan province captured ………………..power be disrupted

2:00 am and hereafter, 05/21/08

Scenario 1:
Under leadership and provoking of democratic elites, Mrs. Wei jingsheng (魏京生) and Wang Dan(王丹), the 38rD PLA army take control over Beijing and arrest all top communist officers;

Under support of the 38rd army, Mrs. Wei jingsheng (魏京生) and Wang dan(王丹) declare newborn Democratic Republic of China (DRP) excluding Tibet and XiaJing province, in Beijing, and claim themselves the interim President and vice president; but, meanwhile, those provinces declare disconnected or independent from the central government

Scenario 2:

Under support from Tibet soldiers and officers in communists Chinese army and government, The First Snowlion Airborne Division of Tibet government exile in India be airdropped at the airport at L.S. and take over it; These brave Tibet soldiers continue moving and overthrow the Chinese communist government and arrest all of those top communists officers in L.S.; meanwhile 300, 000 Indian army and air force break through the Chinese frontline in south Tibet to help Tibetans; Dalai Lama come back to Tibet and declare Republic of Tibet and independence from Chinese. Those Chinese officers including Hu be tried in the Tibetan military tribute at L.S..

Scenario 3:

Under assistances of Uyghur officers and soldiers in PLA army and Chinese communist government, Around 500,000 East Turkestan army in Afghanistan break through the Chinese frontline in and take over all over Xinjiang, after all of non-Uyghur people be expelled from Xingjiang, the East Turkestan Republic be found and the Uyghur people see their indepedence and their own country fisrt time;

2:00 am, 05/22/08

Scenario 1:

North Korea surrender to the South Korea, there after, both declare unification in Republic of Korea; Under support of US army, Korean Army break through Chinese frontline and take over the Three Northern provinces of China, the Korea eventually come back to where they belong to thousands of years ago and a Giant Republic of Korea come out of the world;

Scenario 2:

Under Russian support, 500,000 Outer Mongols army pass the borders and take over all over inner Mongols, An independent Republic of Mongols be established thereafter;

Scenario 3:

Vietnam army take over Hong Kong, Macau, Guangdong, Guangxi, and Haine

Scenario 4:

Japan navy and marine take over Shanghai……………

Scenario 5:

Taiwan Take over Funjin……………

Just within two days, Chinese communist regime be collapsed and gone. The history always repeats what it did before, but this time, what things are different is that people in this land can enjoy their freedom and democracy for ever.