why do the chinese have to turn everything, including a humanitarian tragedy, into a cause for nationalism? it's disturbing

I did hear "Long Life China", but mostly, the slogans shouted over and over were "Come on China", "Be strong China", "Be strong Sichuan", "Hang in there, WenChuan". Words of encouragement.

The commentator said things along the line of "We are hand in hand, heart in heart. We will rebuild together. Blood and tear, people from WenChuan, 1.3 billion people are together with you.".

However you interpret it, I am touched. Again, I am a Chinese.

Why are you saying disturbing?Does the nationalism disturb you indeed?How?Why?When?

We love our country.Long live China!Maybe foreign people cannot understand such feelings!

Chinese history has many tragedies.
Chinese are shouting slogans to show their determination to overcome this latest grief.

Just so it's clear, I never said I was against the shouting of slogans. In fact, when I was watching this live I had an overwhelming sense of the unity of the Chinese people during this dark time.

I criticized the Chinese very strongly for the absurd overreaction to foreign criticism. However, in this case I fully support the coming together of the Chinese people. I only hope that the Chinese continue waving flags in unity rather than rage.

They were anything but nationalist. Indeed, from the newsclips I watched, the main bulk of the time was spent on spurring Sichuan on, and urging all to be strong and help in the rebuilding. I don't seem to hear them chanting 'Long Live China' (Chinese or English) at all.

Well, it's a stupid fashion trend to be a part of nationalism, if you are not , you get pissed off everywhere by members of this main trend

This is our time….

This is simply our time to mourn, to remember, to cry our cry, to pain our pain.

No approval is sought, we simply want to be!

Let us be.

Let us grieve, in peace.

Jay is just demonstrating to people how disturbed he/she is. He/she has been doing this job on other blogs as well.

@ jay

"why do the chinese have to turn everything, including a humanitarian tragedy, into a cause for nationalism? it's disturbing."

most governments do this in times of tragedy. There are many examples. Think of Australia and Howard and the Bali bombings. Its politic. But that does not discount the true grief they may feel; despite possible demagoguery.

Chinese culture is collectivsm. People should understand its national character. It is very disturbing that Westeners do not get it.

This culture is about fighting head on any enemy including human, nature, maybe even God himself.

Han Chinese become 25% humanity for no accident. Its superiority is its ability of survival in any crisis.

Only way to soften Chinese heart is kindness.

吃软不吃硬

Well, Han Chinese are not exactly 25% of humanity. Not really that close, actually. But the way Han Chinese got to be so populous is from rice. Rice is the reason why a sort of crescent from India, looping through Indochina, and shooting up towards the Koreas, is so populous. After all, the population density of, say, Henan, is far less than, say, Bangladesh's.

Sorry to side track the conversation, I just find population patterns pretty interesting. I also dislike the sort of master-race ideology lurking behind Orietal's post.

“臣闻天下之大义，当混为一。匈奴呼韩邪单于已称北藩，唯郅支单于叛逆，未伏其辜，大夏之西，以为强汉不能臣也。郅支单于惨毒行于民，大恶逼于天。臣延寿、臣汤将义兵，行天诛，赖陛下神灵，阴阳并应，陷阵克敌，斩郅支首及名王以下。宜悬头槁于蛮夷邸间，以示万里，明犯强汉者，虽远必诛！”

明犯强汉者，虽远必诛!
No matter how far away on the earth, who dares to offend strong Han will be put to death!

Those are words from a Han General during Han dynasty. They did think themself as master as acient Rome.

Well, wouldn't have been Uncle Mao, for people who have feared that living long meant pursuing bourgeois dreams of basic subsistence; probably not Pu Yi, in fact I believe many people would have been happy to have seen him dead; Also a negative on the dowager Empress... she was too busy spending Naval funds on pretty Island getaways and leaving China open to the mercy of “evil” foreign ships (no, not her fault at all).... ;However, once I was walking through the Forbidden City and I saw a pick-pocket get caught red-handed. Security turned up quick smart and he was beaten black and blue in front of everyone. I believe an American shouted, "Long live corporal punishment," before tripping over his own shoelace....

@ ABCD

at this time this is relly unecessary.

We all know China is the master race who in the end will burn every one who says it is not; but right now there are lots of dead Han around from the convulsions of the superior power of nature which all nations must bow to; also a lot of people are crying and feeling sad both Chinese and secondary humans from other countries as well; so you should tone down your nationlist stuff otherwise people will begin to take bloggers like Jay and myself more seriously.

Lets not get into a discussion of whether any Han general ever said such words...new to me...what particular book is that from? What particular Han general?

Jay, why do Americans shout "God bless America" incessantly? I don't see what the big deal is. So what if Chinese express a little bit of national pride?

Hey Oriental and ABCD, I found an awesome website for both of you, which might give you some inspiration for better and improved one-liners:

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler

Although you said nationalism at this point is understandable, I would still like to point it out that they were not shouting "Long Live China". They were shouting "加油中国（Go China）", which, often used to cheer athelets in sports events, obviously does not contain any element of nationalism at all. I would prefer the word patriotism.

The slogan is Come on,China !Endure ,WenChuan !Chinese people are encouraging each other.we love China.Facing the terrible earthquake,all chinese people put our hearts together to support wenchuan people.This kind of feeling is from our heart.Being a common chinese people,thanks a lot for the foreigners who help chinese !
Anna

I don't think anyone has any problem with the national unity China is creating amongst itself. Similar case in US after 9/11. I guess what a few people here are a bit uncertain about is the tempestuous way it is used (for instance during the torch relay). Nationalism is a great thing as long as those who use it understand what harm it CAN do. I don't have to remind you of the 1960s and 1970's in China, because I am sure you all are well aware of what ultra-nationalism can do to a society. But this time its to mend a wounded heart so all if forgiven this way...

... to an extent. Excellent Australian Doco on dissent in China before the Olympics. Would love to hear some comments: (voices of dissent) http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/default.htm

Hey to `H'

But Hitler was a loser who only inspires other losers.

Han General who made those words 明犯强汉者，虽远必诛! was a winner. He made those words after he invaded a foreign country, beheaded its King and hang his head at gate.

Inspiration from loser for losers. Inspiration from winner for winners.

I guess this clip doesn't show it, but there were definitely cheers of Long live China! 中国万岁! at some point during this event. Not that it matters... but I know what I heard when I was watching the event live on CCTV.

ABCD/Oriental/Chinese history:

Wait, you are going to kill me because I attribute the high population density seen throughout southern and eastern Asia to the early cultivation of rice rather than innate racial superiority? I'm a bit confused here.

"They did think themself as master as acient Rome."

Rome and the Han Dynasty both saw each other as more or less equals. I think they would have admired each other greatly if they had more extensive contacts. The Romans would have immediately taken to Confucian philosophy and the Chinese would have greatly admired Stoic philosophy.

If only the damned Parthians hadn't kept Gan Ying from going to Rome. It would have been quite interesting, I think.

Have read your this article yesterday,and after that, read some "rumors" and "predictions" about whether the earthquake would attack Shaanxi province, and at last, I finally know, maybe some people in Beijing, miss Lizicheng too much

China: Ethnically diverse forum shut down

On May 15, Uighur Online (维吾尔在线, http://www.uighuronline.cn), the main online forum serving to bridge the huge communication gap between China’s Muslim population, other minority ethnic groups, and Han Chinese, was shut down.

Read more at:

http://advocacy.globalvoicesonline.org/2008/05/20/china-ethnically-diverse-forum-shut-down/

Diannao wangluo wan shou wu jiang!

What I saw happen here in Beijing during the 3 minute 'silence' was very moving - 3 minutes of sirens and horns wailing while everyone stands frozen with heads bowed was a far more evocative demonstration of grief than the traditional contemplative minute of silence utilised in the West. All the Go China nonsense at Tiananmen shown in the above clip seems, however, very irrelevant and somewhat disturbing. Nationalist defiance in the face of nature? What does waving little plastic flags have to do with helping or feeling empathy towards those who have had a dreadful natural catastrophe befall them?

Just like any other human, Chinese people have an urge to shout but they can not shout for anything else than nationalism or something like Olympics which government allows them to go on march and shout.
This kind of urge is very important to make one feel that he/she has a right to make a voice, to show that he/she is part of something, he/she has a value that he/she can stand for. When this kind of urge meets with the need of the government for a shout as a backup even silent mourning with loud siren became possible.

I also was moved by the silence, by the horns and sirens, the television shots of thousands and thousands of people standing in solidarity...

At the same time, the "jiayou sichuan" seemed a bit strange. Is Sichuan involved in a competition? Who are they fighting against? we wondered the next day at work...

We are spilling over with sorrow and feelings of helplessness, and we have few channels through which to express these feelings - the cry of "jiayou zhonguo! jiayou sichuan!" was just that, a channel.

The fact that it was, yes, a rather nationalistic-feeling channel, doesn't take away from the fact that the emotions behind those cries were pure and sincere.

Just as being aware of how easy it is for post-tragedy fervor to be shaped into patriotic fervor does not take away from the beauty of shared mourning. Let's just be real about the fact that this happens in all countries (post 9-11 in the US, anyone?) and is not the most inspiring part of the response.

@Chinese History.

Is the great Han general you speak of noen other than Ban Chao, the head-hunter?

吃软不吃硬: Only kindness can soften the heart.

Here is a perfect example. A kind gesture of Pr.Bush can win so many Chinese heart easily.

http://www.truthfromfacts.com/2008/05/21/202/

Whoever coquered China always played benevolent card. Red-neck style toughness only leads to beheading.

So you are also a foreigner blogger in China, that's really cool :)

Ian, how is it irrelevant? There is a saying called turning grief into power -- to do something positive in the face of a challenge. In this case, the positive thing is to rebuild and to continue developing the country. Westerners have this stoic mentality about "acts of God" and accept calamities as something to get away from. But Chinese believe that humans can battle and win against heaven and earth. This is the abstract version of what you call "defiance in the face of nature".

@Oriental

"Whoever co[n]quered China always played benevolent card. Red-neck style toughness only leads to beheading.

Was this the case with Chingiz Khan?

Wasnt it the other way around?

@ aw,

I like the look of your blog. What does the caption say in that photograph where there is a pagoda standing amid all the rubble of the earthquake from newer buildings?

@James

Read true scholarly history book about Changiz Khan. He collaborated with Han against Gin. He never conquered China. Your knowlage of history is really fautlty.

His grandson Kublai Khan played benevolent card to win heart and mind of regular Han Chinese. In order to get his great Khan title, Kublai Khan had conquered Mongol itself first with his Han Chinese troop first. Then he used his Han Chinese troop to conquered Southen Song.

No matter win or loss, Han will always be valued by domestic or foreign conquerors. Mongols genercided most central Asian cities, but rarely do so in China. At end, productive of people determind the survival of your breed. Like Fransic Galton and Jared Diamond had argued, your right to survive in this world is productivity.

When Western corporations layed out their own workers and moved to other place, the same process going on....

We all are no difference from domesticated animals. If you are free and wild like wild animals, extinction is most like outcome.

I was on the lake at the summer palace when China observed the three minutes of silence. One woman continued to talk and had to be hushed. In the quiet, the ship blasted its horns. In each brief lull, we heard thousands of horns and sirens wailing across Beijing. When the time ended, the woman who had to be hushed was crying. Cynically, I attributed her tears to a deliberate display of appropriate grief in repentance for her folly.

Now back in the states, I am posting my notes on my visit on my blog at betterfiction.com.

Thank you for the video! I will be in Beijing in three days and perhaps I can cheer China on as well!

@Oriental

re: Your knowlage of history is really fautlty.

Firstly let me say your knowledge of English is obviously not much better.

But to say GK did not conquer China. Of course he did. It just depends on how you interpret China at that time. Wasnt the Jin - a Chinese dynasty?What was the Song dynasty but a divided north/south construction with no cohesion, which ultiamtely submitted tot he Mongols. To follow your reasoning only Dynasties which were "Han" were "truly" Chinese. I agree; and that has been my argument all along. So the Han dynasty was Chinese; and a few more but not the Qing etc. Wei? Not even Tang? Thank you for confirming my historiographical position. I rest my case.

BTW what 'good' history books do you read?

@ Oriental

if we only see the Jin as a non-Chinese dynasty you are right. GK did not conquer China. If you do see it as Chinese dynasty which you will because you are a strident nationalist, then yes he did conquer China- but not all of it. His grandson completed the conquest with various troops from all over his vast territorial empire. Any way to corredct my self I would have been more correct saying that teh 'Mongols' conquered China. Conquest doesnt necessarilly infer military
conquest. Wasnt Xinjiang and Tibet 'peacefully' liberated by the PLA?

So they say. But you know they werent.

Kublais troops who went into Yunnan and Burma were they Han troops? No.

Why did Han troops fight their own people for a Mongol overlord?

Because there did not exist any idea of a united China at the time or a thing you now called a Chinese nation. This is all recent fantasy. (thanks Mao)

Nor was their (Han) loyalty to any 'Chinese' Emperor. Kublai Khan like his grandfther was the emperor of the World. China at that time was a big Mongol colony.

James said:
"We all know China is the master race who in the end will burn every one who says it is not; but right now there are lots of dead Han around from the convulsions of the superior power of nature which all nations must bow to; also a lot of people are crying and feeling sad both Chinese and secondary humans from other countries as well; so you should tone down your nationlist stuff otherwise people will begin to take bloggers like Jay and myself more seriously."

I agree with you and support you (and Jay) 500%. That even if I lived in that particular remote (and boring, to tell the truth) region of Sichuan for one long year, and have been shocked by this very sad news.

On the other hand I am wondering when this (good) blog started to be spammed by Chinese who remind secondary humans from other countries how much they love their wonderful country. Looks a little bit off topic here. Last time I read extensively the comments I wasn't bothered by this... thing.

James said:
"We all know China is the master race who in the end will burn every one who says it is not; but right now there are lots of dead Han around from the convulsions of the superior power of nature which all nations must bow to; also a lot of people are crying and feeling sad both Chinese and secondary humans from other countries as well; so you should tone down your nationlist stuff otherwise people will begin to take bloggers like Jay and myself more seriously."

I agree with you and support you (and Jay) 500%. That even if I lived in that particular remote (and boring, to tell the truth) region of Sichuan for one long year, and have been shocked by this very sad news.

On the other hand I am wondering when this (good) blog started to be spammed by Chinese who remind secondary humans from other countries how much they love their wonderful country. Looks a little bit off topic here. Last time I read extensively the comments I wasn't bothered by this... thing.

I don’t know what disturbed me more, the fact that we received psychoanalysis for what we do during mourning or few of my countrymen had to spout out nonsense.

It puzzled me that while Mr. Host here found it disrespectful to protest during the funeral of fallen soldiers in US, it is apparently funny to threw in a smart question about how people mourned their deceased in China.

But to my great horror, few of the supposedly Chinese/Han seemed to set out to prove there is merit for what Mr. Host is doing here. So Oriental, I really don’t think you are from China, just because of your remark “Whoever coquered China always played benevolent card. Red-neck style toughness only leads to beheading”. James here doesn’t need to go far down the memory lane to Yuan dynasty to prove you have no knowledge of Chinese history, just go back about 200 years, then you would know painfully it were our Chinese heads that were beheaded. Remember how the Brits opened China’s door? Opium! Remember Opium War and the consequence of it? Unequal treaties! Remember the Eight Nation Alliance and the killing, looting, raping went with it? Remember the summer palace burnt and looted by the French and Brits? Remember the Nanjing massacre? Remember the Japanese bio-experiments conducted on Han Chinese? So for those few, if you really care about China, learn from our history. Self deluded superiority like what Ci Xi had can only lead to great suffering. Why do you think all of us are required to learn a second language? English mostly?

Since I am on a roll, whoever quoted “明犯强汉者，虽远必诛”, you know XiongNu no longer exists, right? And part of this ethic group was assimilated by Han. If you must use that quote to display your Han superiority, you’d better make sure you are that “Han”, not today’s “melting pot Han”. You never know, you might just have some “XiongNu” in you.

James, the Han general they mentioned is Chen Tang. Good luck digging out this part of history, you might have to dig out your “Hou Han Shu”.

@Tong: I think it was legitimate to observe that it had been a very long time since any sort of large gathering had taken place in Tiananmen Square where people had shouted slogans and held up signs. Still, no one has answered my question... when was the last time? When Deng died? 1989? 1976?

@Jun

I dont get your point???? Your meaning is unclear . Please be precise with your language.

Look back over the posts . I was only responding ( adding my colourful interpretation to a nationlist extremism) to a post by the rabid ABCD.

THANKS Tong

for answering an honest question ANSWERING. i will Look it up in the Hou HAN SHU. But did Chen Tang really say that???/???

@Tong

re:

"Self deluded superiority like what Ci Xi had can only lead to great suffering. Why do you think all of us are required to learn a second language? English mostly?"

thanks for the wise words: yu must get through to them. any chance?

Mr Michael/Host, maybe it is a legitimate question to ask, but it was hardly an appropriate time to ask, not in Chinese culture by any means. I have a huge problem with it, because it was asked during our mourning/funeral time. Why do you think this question of yours brought out some of the worst of us?

My only point, really, was that for many people around the world the image of large numbers of Chinese people waving signs, shouting slogans, and pumping their fists in Tiananmen Square will remind them of many events in the past (and nothing that I can think of in recent years).

It's a point that I think the Chinese government is well aware of, and when I wrote the post I didn't come to any particular conclusions.

That's how I do things around here... slightly provocative yet open-ended.

http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2008/05/deadly-earthqua.html

Deadly Earthquake Doesn't Shake China's Internet Censors

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