Damn it, Michael!

Anywho, it isn't entirely unreasonable to link Tibetan and Uighur unrest. They don't have much in common, but one similarity is that they are both disgruntled ethnicity in China. Civil Disturbance 101: Unrest knows no ethnicity.

yea i have some news about the bombing, it didnt happen. stop trying to spread rumors, you are just dying for this to be true right, savage. and what, just bc an american said this its true? just bc an american took that pic its true? god knows where that pic was taken, from god knows where. i have connections to urumqi too, and all the eye supposed "eye witnesses" all have different stories,

@conrad: I think you've misunderstood... I'm on your side on this one. The photo is from 2005, when a crazy Han Chinese guy blew up a bus in Karamay.

Micheal once again your expert perceptions are found wanting: the Uighur and Tibetan experiences under Communist rule have EVERYTHING in common- whooooo! How can someone who is so sharp in certain areas be so off target in others? Or are yu trying to cover yr arse now yu are in Beijing? James

I can perseonally testify that H French is an extremely lousy journalist with an extremely low professional standard. Now I just plainly hate this man.

I don't see anything wrong with French's reporting. Other sources have quoted Uighur activists as saying they were inspired by the Tibetan protests so it is reasonable to conclude that the two situations are linked.

You also have to remember that it is the Chinese themselves who are preventing foreign journalists from traveling to the areas of unrest to see for themselves. The Chinese can't have it both ways, denying access and then complaining about "biased" or "untrue" reporting.

And why do you use the terminology "fancies himself a journalist" when referring to an eyewitness? Maybe the person completely made it up or maybe he told French the truth. How are we to know. But I'll take French over Xinhua ANY day.

@Jay,

Howard French is in the very end of opposite to a journalist. If you want to see someone, like Richard Spensor is good.

Most time Mr. French spits out garbages.

On the ad hoc editing of the NYT article:

Wow. There was a time newspapers had to issue retractions. Now one of the world's most respected news sources gets to retcon?

Interesting quote I found in the article from a Party official:

"[The Uighurs] claim that Xinjiang belongs to them"

Not to be technical or anything, but isn't that what the CCP claims?

BEIJING, April 4 (Xinhua) -- Chinese netizens have shown a vigorous response to Western media reports on the riots in Lhasa, disapproving of coverage that they contend favored allegations from the Dalai Lama's backers: that Chinese Armed Police in monks' robes joined the rioters.

A picture was leaked on the Internet showing tens of Chinese People's Armed Police (PAP) servicemen, wearing summer uniforms and holding monks' robes. This photo was linked to allegations by the Dalai clique that those PAP members dressed as Tibetan monks and rioted on March 14 in Lhasa.

The picture was shortly discredited by Chinese netizens who identified obvious inconsistencies in the picture.

First, the summer uniforms of the PAP shown in the picture could not have been worn by the armed forces while they were on duty on March 14 in Lhasa, where it was cold at the time.

Second, since 2005, all PAP members have worn shoulder badges, which are not visible in the picture. Their absence indicates the picture is outdated.

05 armed soldiers summer uniform in Tibet

http://news.xinhuanet.com/mil/2008-04/03/xinsrc_1020405030751000750711.jpg

05 armed soldiers winter uniform in Tibet
http://news.xinhuanet.com/mil/2008-04/03/xinsrc_1020405030751312110512.jpg

05 armed soldiers winter uniform in Tibet
http://news.xinhuanet.com/mil/2008-04/03/xinsrc_1020405030751640677113.jpg

An Internet user showing an IP address of 192.168.25.* said that the picture was originally uploaded on a website affiliated with the Dalai clique's "government-in-exile".

However, the original picture has a caption saying: "This photo was apparently taken when monks refused to act in a movie, so soldiers were ordered to put on the robes", the netizen said.

Following the picture on its original webpage was a story by analleged "free press" outlet in Canada, which said that British intelligence had confirmed the Dalai clique's allegation that Chinese military members had imitated monks in the riot.

"How could a picture, which was taken in connection with a performance, be used as evidence to accuse the Chinese government and be relayed as an erroneous report by the Western media?" the netizen queried.

A netizen posting from 121.31.116.* said that the Dalai clique's "government-in-exile" exists on lies and schemes and someWestern media have relayed those lies and rumors.

Chinese and Western media have clashed since the beginning of the Lhasa riot, an individual using the screen name "Qiu Zhenhai" said in a posting.

Many Western media organizations, including CNN, observed events in Tibet through rose-colored glasses. Their reports, inconsistent with the facts, could be imputed to Westerners' "Tibet complex" and the difference in political values between China and Western countries, the netizen said.

A netizen posting from 60.215.184.* said that the Chinese government's handling of the riot in Lhasa was an internal affair and asked why some Western countries always acted like a world savior. "If the southern part of the United States declares independence, would you agree? If Northern Ireland in the United Kingdom asked for independence, would you agree?" the netizen said.

Another netizen, visiting from 60.167.73.*, said that press freedom did not mean the freedom to make up a story or incriminate others with false evidence. The netizen said that such behavior was an infringement of human rights.

The netizen suggested suing Western media organizations that produced false information on the riot, using the facts and evidence in China, and ascertaining the responsibilities of the authors, editors and their organizations.

Yet another netizen said in a posting on www.sohu.com that the Chinese government should take a harder line in handling the Tibet issue, since whatever the government did, the Western media, holding deep-rooted bias against China, would not stop its criticism.

Western scholars, politicians and media have made elaborate efforts to create a favorable press environment for their countries, and the United States is obviously a beneficiary of that situation, a netizen using the name of "Feng Yiju" said on www.southcn.com.

The netizen called on Chinese citizens to boycott the Western media's reports and express their own perspectives and interpretations of Chinese issues.

It is interesting how they quote Chinese 'netizens' by their IP address. You might as well just give them a key to your apartment

The PSB, that is.

Many centuries ago, both Uighurs and Tibetans have no shame, repeatedly attacking and terrorising the Chinese when they are both outside China. I believe the Great Wall was built to obstruct and repel them. But when they are inside now, they still have same problem adjusting their life in this modern era.

@BeWay: It was to protect the Ming Dynasty against the Mongols and Manchurian, not the Uighurs, nor the Tibetans. Get your own history right.

More Han died building it, than what it probably protected them against.

But "Beway" baby havent Xinjiang and Tibet ALWAYS been a part of China? Your historical fantasy is starting to show the cracks. There is water gushing out of them. Love, James

Even the US has long accepted Tibet to be part of China - even well before the 1950 liberation:

The United States considers the Tibet Autonomous Region or TAR (hereinafter referred to as “Tibet”) as part of the People’s Republic of China. This longstanding policy is consistent with the view of the entire international community, including all China’s neighbors: no country recognizes Tibet as a sovereign state. Moreover, U.S. acceptance of China’s claim of sovereignty over Tibet predates the establishment of the People’s Republic of China. In 1942, we told the Nationalist Chinese government then headquartered in Chongqing (Chungking) that we had “at no time raised (a) question” over Chinese claims to Tibet.
US State Department.
http://dosfan.lib.uic.edu/ERC/bureaus/eap/950907WiedemannTibet.html

The first Great Wall was built by Qin Dynasty to defence against the Xiongnu people from the north. Later, the Han, Sui, Northern Jin, and Ming dynasties all repaired, rebuilt, or expanded sections of the Great Wall at great cost to defend themselves against northern invaders. Before the Qing Dynasty, China was attacked or invaded by invaders from all angles such as the Mongols and Manchurians but also by confederations of steppe normals such as the Scythians, Tibetans, Xiongnu, Huns, Avars, Khazars, Turkic, Cumans etc. The Turkic are the ancestors of modern days Uyghurs. Remember An Lushan, a general of Sodgian-Turkic ancestry who together with the Tibetans ransacked Chang'an during the Tang Dynasty, In the twist of history, both Uyghurs and the Tibetans became subjects of Yuan Dynasty after being conquered by the Mongols. This is the beginning of how both normadic tribes of Uyghurs and Tibetans eventually became parts of China. More to come...

@Lucas: The great wall was initially built in Qin Dynasty(221 BC - 206 BC), which was about almost 2000 years earlier than Ming, and then it was repaired, rebuilt, expanded by many Dynasties succeeding it, including Ming. And the wall was not built just against Mongolians, but all north invader at the time, consist mostly of nomad clans.

"More Han died building it, than what it probably protected them against."
Don't be so arrogant and assume. How would you know? The great wall was one of the greatest protection of the China at ancient times. It prevented the country's long border from direct attack of the invaders. Yes, there were a lot of people died building it, but don't deny it's worth because of it either!

Hey Michael.

No more word on the bus stuff from my school. My boss told me it was a rumor, and another (Chinese) teacher said who knows... so.. I'm leaving it at that.

Definitely haven't seen anything strange on the streets. It's business as usual in Urumqi.

As I've said in the past, the most murderous regime in human history can't expect to get totally fair press coverage. It comes with the package of being the most murderous regime in human history.

@Tiako,

Your ranting is amusing. Too bad you will have exactly ZERO impact on Chinese policy. But I suppose being able to vent your frustration on an internet forum must make you feel better.

@Lucas
@James

We hold Tibet now, suckas! We got enough money and guns to hold it indefinitely. It ain't gonna change, baby!

Cao meng de,

They didn't get it. They thought they have the power over the world. But acturally they don't even have the ability to stop economic recession and having a black guy to be their president.

Let's wait Obama to build an American communism with Black theological characteristics.lol.

Si ma yi,

Long time no see. America is fucked for next 2-3 years. But there is no need to be racist.

Yes, as your boss, I am ordering you to tune down the racism.

Anyway, Obama is probably a better choice than Clinton and McCain. Not that it will make a difference in solving the enormous problem that US has to face today.

I took part in peaceful demonstrations in London, but not to disrupt it. Most others felt the same way.

China promised to improve Human Rights when the Olympic games were awared. However the events in the last few years demonstrate otherwise:

a) China has increased the crackdown on internal dissidents. For example the recent conviction by a Chinese court of long-time HIV/AIDS activist and rights defender Hu Jia.

b) Organ harvesting and related extrajudicial executions in Chinese labour camps. This is to supply transplants to foreign and wealthly Chinese clients as demonstrated in a BBC investigation. Infact executions at prisons were steeped up to meet excess demand in the nearby transplant hospital.

c) Ethic cleansing and cultural genocide of minorities, mainly Tibetans and Uyghurs in rural provinces in the west of China. This has taken place since the 1950s with the loss of 1.5m Tibetean lives.

d) Lack of general political freedom. The Communist party bosses have accumulated huge sums of money by using brute state power on the voiceless - land grabs, forced deportation are good example. These methods have also been used for developing the Olympic Village in Beijing.

e) International Relations: China exports its form of repression to other states. North Korea & Burma are immediate satellite states with gross human rights violations. Its role in Africa with support for Sudan despite its repression in Darfur and China's support for Zimababwe's Mugabe speak for themselves.

f) Curbs on journalists who are not free to report in China. The situation is worse for local reporters.

g) Lack of freedom of religion: Religion is still considered as poison by the communist party as it was in times of Chairman Mao. This has resulted to mass purges of Churches, Monastries and Mosque. Not to mention Falung Gong.

These are good reasons for the world to boycott the games, or at the minmum the opening ceremony.

Opponents of this view would say one should not mix sports and politics, while leading secure lives not the receiving end of Chinese repression. Yes they are right in ideal circumstances. However in this case, China has politicised the games by wanting to display to the world its 'harmonious' society. The repression leaves global citizens with no choice but to protest.

This is in no way a stance against the Chinese people, who are as much victims of the communist party propoganda. The recent whipping up of Han chauvinism towards his Holiness the Dalai Lama sounds right of a Communist playbook from the Cultural revolution.

I wish for all global citizens to rise up for Human Rights, common values and morals to stand up against Chinese communist repression.

Cao,

"Ranting"? I assume you know the definition of the word, and are willfully misusing it for rhetorical effect.

Regardless, I don't really see where my ignorance is. I claimed that the PRC is the most murderous regime in human history. It is. Nor do I see my frustrations. I was simply pointing out a simple truth. If you want fair press coverage, don't murder tens of millions of your own citizens.

Tiako, Ol'boy, you misunderstand me. I don't care about Western press coverage, nor you opinion.

Cheers!

I'm not entirely sure why you thought the post being discussed was addressed to you.

@Taiko,

On whose account is the PRC the most murderous regime in human history. If the majority of the Chinese don't think so, who are you then to judge and come up with that stupid statement.

Boss Cao,

I am not racist at all... Just feel funny to see how the omni-potent and self-centerred white Americans have to choose somebody they are afraid of, deeply from the bottom of their hearts.
It is the revenge of history, isn't it?

BeWay,

I don't really see where the feelings of the ordinary Chinese come into it. The CPC has embarked on a campaign of information of suppression and false education ever sense it comes to power. I, an American, have easier access to accurate data than a Chinese citizen. Note that I am not saying that the Chinese live in some sort of Orwellian dictatorship where all information is ruthless suppressed.

History is not a democracy, and facts are decided by votes.
-------
Si ma yi,

You claim you aren't racist. Then you say white Americans are self centered. You are a study in irony.

@Tiako

So what if you're an American. Being an American doesn't mean anything when your fellow Americans are still mired in Iraq bloody war, killing innocent people without being provoked and so on. I am not from PRC as well but it doesn't mean we don't see the dirty war being played by the Americans against the world.

Tiako,

I can give you a tip of how to identify racists. The one constantly labels other as racists is the real racist.
I don't think saying White Americans are self-centered is biased at all. You have the money and guns to be self-centered at this very moment. So, enjoy it

Well, with Netizens like yourselves I am sure China will continue to have no freinds in the international community. Congratultions.

Friends! What friends? Unless China submit all her rights to the West, right. You call that friend. Don't bullshit around.

Well, with Netizens like yourselves I am sure China will continue to have no freinds in the international community. Congratultions.

***********

with friend like you, who needs enemy?

Charles Cumming The Guardian,
Saturday April 5 2008

Quiet death in Xinjiang
Tibet is not the only Chinese province to suffer barbaric treatment from its Beijing masters

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/apr/05/china.tibet

Sometimes I do wonder whether China has grow too pampered when dealing with both Tibet or Xinjiang. The underlies softspots have always given way to some trouble after every 20 years. If I am the head of the Chinese Govt, my offering for both places are;
1. Create millions of jobs in both places and get all Chinese to migrate there.
2. Provide incentives to all Chinese to multiply as many as they can. The more the merry.
Rest assured, in 20 years time, we've not have any problem. The DL can fade away in India and then reincarnate as hollywood clown.

mike,
I don't think DL will reincarnate as a hollywood clown. He will reincarnate as a Tibetan toddler. I want to see how Hollywood reinvents an image of a peaceful guru or a living god from this poor toddler. It won't be an easy job for both sides.

Fingers crossed.

si ma yi,

Dear god, are you serious? You actually think that's a good argument? God damn it.

---------------

BeWay,

Please don't bring in non-sequiturs. Iraq has absolutely nothing to do with the present discussion. As for your fears on the loss of sovereignty, the main problem the West has with China is China's tyrannical government.

------------------

Mike,

That's kind of what the Chinese government is doing. Or was that the point of your post? It's hard to tell.

The references to Iraq are instructive: there is a serious debate on this deadly serious and tragic subject in America and elsewhere. Anyone who claims to have a simple solution is a joke and will be destroyed on these pages.

There is no serious debate about Tibet or Xinjiang in China. Obviously, this is because the answer is so clear. LOL.

Mike,

Looks like you picked a perfect (or bad) time to leave E. Turkestan. But now you are embedded to watch the mayhem unfold in Beijing. Document the revlonushun!

Burn China burn!

Self-Centered White American,

You are right, Americans have had "open" discussions regarding the war in Iraq since five years ago. And your "democratic" and "free" government told your "free" media to tell the "innocent" Americans that Iraq has nucleur weapons.

Compared to the brainwashed Chinese mass, American people have demonstrated their extraodinary intelligence to make political judgment for themselves and for Iraqies.

Now, the serious discussion is still ongoing. Two out of three president contenders have told the "innocent" and prudent American people that they won't pull the troop out of Iraq.
That is the result of having serious discussion in the US. It shows the world how important to have open discussion in the public space and how significantly American people's opinion can influence the political decision of their government.

LMAO

Zhao, it's kind of hard to take you seriously when you say things like "Two out of three president contenders have told the "innocent" and prudent American people that they won't pull the troop out of Iraq."

You know what? Forget it. I leave this conversation. There is only so much discussion one can have with a lead wall before getting sick of it.