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March 18, 2008

Right & Wrong

PHOTOS Those of you looking for evidence of violence against the protesters should take a look at this gallery. Photos are very graphic. Flash and an uncensored connection required.
••••

One question that I haven't heard asked or answered much in Western news media over the past few days: were the actions of the rioters in Lh@sa justified?

Scenes of destruction in Lh@sa after Tibetan riots in 2008.

One thing that's become quite clear is that the protests in Lh@sa devolved quickly into an all-out riot — complete with lynchings — while in other places monks seem to have marched more or less peacefully. (At least according to what we know now, which is very little.) Even if half the stuff written in the Chinese media about what Tibetans in Lh@sa did to local Han and Hui residents is true, I'm gonna have to step out on a limb here and say that it's just plain wrong.

From Xinhua:

In the Lh@sa unrest, rioters sliced off people's ears, gored children, clubbed young Tibetans into coma and tried to block nurses from saving an injured 5-year-old.

Tibet regional chairman Qiangba Puncog told a news briefing in Beijing on Monday that 13 innocent civilians were burned or stabbed to death in Friday's riots.

Puncog said that the mobs' actions were extremely brutal. "In one incident, they poured gasoline onto an innocent person and burned the person to death. In another, they knocked over a police officer, and then knifed a fist-size piece of flesh out of the officer's buttocks."

From China Daily:

Some rioters wielded iron rods, wooden sticks and long knives, randomly assaulting passersby, sparing neither women nor children....

Tubdain, a local resident, said he saw a girl in red-clothing who appeared to be an ethnic Han chased and clubbed by six people on the Dosenge Road in the downtown area. "The mobs stoned her head and batted her knees with wooden clubs," said the 50-something Tubdain.

"Blood trickled down her face. She stumbled to the ground, crying and begging the rioters to let her go," he said. "They seemed like a bunch of insane people, growling, stabbing, smashing and burning. It was so hard to believe what I saw."

Jin Hong, a clerk with the Bank of China outlet on Lh@sa's Beijing East Road, suffered a broken pelvis after jumping from the second-floor of the building while trying to protect a cash box.

"About 60 rioters, all young men and women, attacked the bank with rocks and axes and set fire to the building on Friday afternoon."

"I hid in the toilet with three colleagues, but the mobs thronged against the toilet door. I had to jump out of the window," she said.

Now, I know many of you will argue that the explosive anger shown in the riots is a result of years of boneheaded Chinese policy in Tibet and an extremely repressive environment. You're right. And some of you will say, well, there are probably 100 or more Tibetans dead. Maybe. But does that give people the right to cut chunks out of other people's butts? Aren't Tibetans supposed to take the high road, like Gandhi, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., and... err, Jesus? (How did these three ever come to form a trio in my mind? I'm a Jew for Christ's sake!)

I'm sure Richard Gere and the Beastie Boys didn't fall in love with Tibet for its ancient doctrine of violence and destruction.

Yes, the Chinese have pushed the Tibetan people for years and years, and something's gotta give. Nevertheless, the shameful actions of the rioters in Lh@sa targeting innocent civilians last week should be condemned. Right is right, and wrong is still wrong.

Tibetan religious leaders, specialists condemn violence in Lh@sa
17 March 2008
Xinhua News Agency
(c) Copyright 2008 Xinhua News Agency

Lh@sa, March 17 (Xinhua) -- Tibetologists in Lh@sa have condemned the violence that rocked the Buddhist holy city and killed 13 innocent people Friday.

Cering Doje, deputy director of the religion research institute of the Tibetan Academy of Social Sciences (TASS), said that he questioned the Dalai Lama's humanity and mercy.

"Religion advocates care and mercy, but the reckless rioters attacked hospitals and child-entertainment centers," Doje said, "They seemed to have lost basic humanity, and there was no mercy at all."

Other Tibetologists said that they were outraged by the Dalai Lama's silence in condemning the riot.

In the Lh@sa unrest, rioters sliced off people's ears, gored children, clubbed young Tibetans into coma and tried to block nurses from saving an injured 5-year-old.

Tibet regional chairman Qiangba Puncog told a news briefing in Beijing on Monday that 13 innocent civilians were burned or stabbed to death in Friday's riots.

Puncog said that the mobs' actions were extremely brutal. "In one incident, they poured gasoline onto an innocent person and burned the person to death. In another, they knocked over a police officer, and then knifed a fist-size piece of flesh out of the officer's buttocks."

On Saturday, the Dalai Lama charged that Tibet was being ruled by terror, which Tibetan officials rejected as "downright nonsense".

Basang Wangdu, another Tibetologist and a council member of the International Society of Tibetology, said that people could see from Friday's riots that the Dalai Lama had not ceased his secessionist activity but added that these attempts "will not succeed."

While condemning the riots, others called for solidarity among all ethnic groups at what they said was a critical time.

"Tibetans and Hans share a common cultural background. We have links that cannot be severed," said Cering Gyaibo, the head of TASS' religion research institute.

"At this critical time, we need to cherish ethnic solidarity and muster courage to protect territorial integrity and ethnic harmony," he said.

The religious researchers' comments came as the latest condemnations against the violence. The 11th Panchen Lama, Gyaincain Norbu, said on Sunday that the violence in Lh@sa ran counter to Buddhism tenets.

Living Buddhas in Tibet also voiced their opposition. Ngawang Daindzin, a living Buddha, said that "the rioters who wore cassocks were no real monks at all. What they did is completely against Buddhism codes."

Local Tibetans, who survived the violence, said they were deeply hurt. A retired worker, Cering Yangzom, said that "it had been repeatedly proven that the Dalai Lama and his followers could not separate Tibet from China, and such savage acts only hurt the feelings of many Tibetans and only revealed a true picture of the Dalai Lama."

Fears and tears in holy plateau city
China Daily
Updated: 2008-03-17 06:36

Lh@sa - Dense smoke blanketed the sky as burning cars emitted an irritating smell amid the wailing of bloodshed.

A Tibetan teacher said she couldn't believe her eyes.

"I've never seen such cruelty before. How can anyone do something like this?" asked Zhayung, who works at the No 1 primary school in Lh@sa. Her voice was still shaky and her complexion tinged with fear and sheer shock.

The school she worked at was among a range of targets damaged by saboteurs in the Tibetan capital on Friday afternoon.

Vandals carrying backpacks filled with stones and bottles of inflammable liquids smashed windows, set fire to vehicles, shops and restaurants along their destructive path.

Some rioters wielded iron rods, wooden sticks and long knives, randomly assaulting passersby, sparing neither women nor children.

"Classes were cancelled," Zhayung said. "I managed to escape from the school and hide in the building across the street, but some of my colleagues were stranded in the school for the whole night until police came to their rescue."

For many Lh@sa residents such as Zhayung, March 14 stopped being just another Friday - it was a day when the capital was left in chaos after an outburst of beatings, vandalism, looting and burning, which officials say was "masterminded by the Dalai clique".

The Tibet regional government said on Saturday at least 10 people were killed, including several from burns and gunshot wounds. Police managed to rescue more than 580 people, including three Japanese tourists, from attacks.

Sources told Xinhua that rioters had ransacked at least 100 shops. The four-storey Landun shopping mall in the old city center, which sold children clothes, was engulfed in flames sparked by the horde.

Its owner, Ye Danping, and her 20 Tibetan employees were lucky to survive after scrambling onto the roof of the building.

Nightmares

As tensions began to ease on Saturday, residents in the traditionally tranquil plateau city recalled the nightmares they went through.

Rawang, a Tibetan clothes vendor in downtown Lh@sa, sighed at the dreary scene, once the site of bustling commerce. "It was once a shopping haven, but now it's all deserted, like a hell." His shop was burnt to the ground. "Losses were grave. These people were crazy," he said.

Tubdain, a local resident, said he saw a girl in red-clothing who appeared to be an ethnic Han chased and clubbed by six people on the Dosenge Road in the downtown area. "The mobs stoned her head and batted her knees with wooden clubs," said the 50-something Tubdain.

"Blood trickled down her face. She stumbled to the ground, crying and begging the rioters to let her go," he said. "They seemed like a bunch of insane people, growling, stabbing, smashing and burning. It was so hard to believe what I saw."

Jin Hong, a clerk with the Bank of China outlet on Lh@sa's Beijing East Road, suffered a broken pelvis after jumping from the second-floor of the building while trying to protect a cash box.

"About 60 rioters, all young men and women, attacked the bank with rocks and axes and set fire to the building on Friday afternoon.

"I hid in the toilet with three colleagues, but the mobs thronged against the toilet door. I had to jump out of the window," she said.

Saved by Tibetan folks

In response the regional government imposed traffic bans and increased the police presence to ensure social security.

For the many ethnic Hans who were lucky enough to survive the disaster, they said it was the Tibetan folks who saved them.

Sun Pingjiang, an ethnic Han and owner of a Titan-styled accessories store near the R@mogia monastery, said he owed his life to an elderly Tibetan woman who saved him from bleeding to death.

"I was attacked by more than 30 people about my age when I was running from my store to my friend's. The mobs beat and stabbed me," said the 26-year-old.

"When I finally managed to run away, I stumbled along and knocked at every door I could for help. A Tibetan woman in a chessboard game room came to my rescue," he said. "She took me in and called the emergency number 120 when the streets calmed down," he said.

Sun is being treated for leg and back injuries at the General Hospital of Tibet Military Command.

During Friday's riot, many local Tibetans came to the help of ethnic Hans.

Ma Ruixia, a Han woman who owns clothes and souvenir shops on Barkor Street in the downtown, said her establishments were attacked twice by the mob. She survived with the help of her Tibetan landlord and neighbors.

"Around 2 pm, Friday, I heard people shouting in the yard that rioters were coming and we needed to take shelter," she recalled.

"My Tibetan neighbors faced up to the mob and pleaded with them not to ravage my stores," she said. "I really didn't know what was going on out there. It was horrible."

Ye, who came to Lh@sa 15 years ago from coastal Zhejiang province, said she would stay on in Lh@sa, because she took this place as her second hometown.

"I wish the government would properly handle the incident and make Lh@sa a safe place again," she said.

blog_sig.gif

posted March 18, 2008 at 07:42 AM unofficial Xinjiang time | HaoHao This!

Comments

Our goverment give Tibiant Super-national treatment.
If a Tibiant and a Han Chinese bustup in school, the Han Chinese will be dismissed out of school.
We give them too many special treatment.
our gov is so mercy that We Han Chinese be afflicted by minorities.

my gov, please use GUN to treat them, these ungrateful person.

The comment above was posted by dyn at March 18, 2008 08:39 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.

@dyn: You're not really helping your side with comments like that.

The comment above was posted by michael at March 18, 2008 08:43 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.

michael, thank you. You are friend of all chinese people. I respect you and your advice.
But I MUST express my thought just as the splittist express their's on your blog.
although Han Chinese is the major nation in China, but our voice are always too low to be heared in all conflicts between nation.
Do NOT equate CCP with Chinese People, if our gov can not hold XiZang, we will overthrow it and establish a new one capable to do that.

The comment above was posted by dyn at March 18, 2008 08:58 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.

Although the western media hasn't dwelt too much on what Tibetans have been doing to the Han Chinese, I have been seeing some references to in in blogs. Just finished viewing a Youtube video that I half suspect was not crafted by just one individual on their own. Nevertheless, they do express the point that Michael does here - both sides are making a mess of this.

The comment above was posted by WoodenboatGuy at March 18, 2008 10:27 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.

Well, the Chinese media has done a good job of defining these protests, and they did so right away. The problem is that they didn't ring true to media outside of China. The early claims where that 10 Chinese Han died and that no shots were fired. They still don't want to admit that Tibetans died. For a long time, the media in the West has been going with the figures that the Chinese government has given, and not the possible 300 hundred dead Tibetans that some sources have given (those that I'm sure are blacked out in China).

There have been hundreds of reports of gunfire and several reports that trucks plowed into protesters, so I don't think we can draw the conclusion that the Tibetans lined up with knives ready for blood. That account seems a little sensational.

Did the Tibetans take things further than the moderates in exile would have liked? Yes they did. However, I think the outside media realizes that these actions are sort of the norm of people put into such a situation. When people are powerless, they take it out on the only signs of Chinese rule they can have an effect on (mostly shops and banks that represent the settlement of the area by larger numbers of Han Chinese).

There is still some hope that the Chinese government will turn to the moderates (like the Dalia Lama) who haven't called for complete independence for years (no matter what China says). When you want out of a situation, you turn to those who, to you, seem less extreme. The out is always there, but some people in power would rather marginalize and divide.

Though I hope these sort of posts don't cause problems for the blog owner.

The comment above was posted by ChrisM at March 18, 2008 11:02 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.

I have to respond to the suggestion that the rioters were monks. It was reported at least 8 hours before the riots that the major monastaries were locked down--were surrounded (indeed there were not enough police in the city's center). While some beatings and resistance went on in the monastaries, the riot was perpetuated by laypersons.

The comment above was posted by ChrisM at March 18, 2008 11:07 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.

饱暖思暴乱are people without a respectable civilization background (European, Indian, Huaxia among the few). I suddenly understand the rationality behind the social structure of pre-liberation Tibet which holds the key of keeping itself stable and sustainable. Friction is between major civilizations and clash between civilization and barbarism.

The comment above was posted by chengduboy at March 18, 2008 12:31 PM unofficial Xinjiang time.

Ugyhur terrorists and Tibet@n splittists always say: "驱回灭汉(drive out Hui Chinese, die out Han Chinese)".
Slaughter are aimed at Chinese People not CCP.

The comment above was posted by dyn at March 18, 2008 12:38 PM unofficial Xinjiang time.

The comments from a major Chinese website(sohu) will show you the angry of Chinese people.

http://comment2.news.sohu.com/viewcomments.action?id=255761149

The comment above was posted by dyn at March 18, 2008 01:02 PM unofficial Xinjiang time.

This riot is carefully planned. First the monks draw out the police forces to create a security voil in the city. Then mobs seized chances with prepared the iron bars, long knife and stones, petrols already in backpack and started to attack shops. Meanwhile all Tibetan owners are noticed beforehand so they can put a scarf out to identify their shops.

But I don't think Dalai Lama promoted this. Instead the Tibet Youth Congress probably the main driver for violence. Time for China to pressure India to kick those bastards out or put those fuckers in wanted list and let India security to handle in. Otherwise, we can promote Assam insurgence by giving them training bases and weapons.

But I still think we need to improve our jobs to prevent this kind of things happen again.

Here is my take on why this is happen:

1. Demography. At 1980 when China started her economic miracle, the economy condition improved for ordinary people, so the birth rate increased with that living improvement. But the country also enforced family planning policy--the so-called one child policy to limit the population growth. This policy is not apply to Tibet. So we have a big growth rate of population with average rate of 6 children per family in Tibetan population. That makes the average age of Tibetan at 21. As we know that will be a big factor on social unrest. For example, America has the same average 21 in 1960s, and China in 1970s. Even without the independent movement, it will be a tough issue to handle.

2. The Tibetan government did a poor job on supplying a good education for those new kids. When the government tried to push for Mandarin and English teaching, it was attacked mercilessly by Western human right groups and exile groups as "culture genocide". So Tibetan government is kind of half-hearted to push for schooling which resulting the lack of education and job skill when job opening is up. As everyone understand that if you speak Tibetan, Mandarin and English will promise you high paying job, and if you only speak Tibetan, then probably the job is not as good as you speak more language. So this factor alone will contribute local Tibetan youth feel that they didn't get the best of economic benefit in their own land. And they alway have a chance to become a monk instead of studying hard.

3. Other high wage jobs like a tour guide for foreign tourists should all go to local Tibetans who can speak English. But here the exile group are doing the damage to prevent it. They would get their people to get the jobs (with their English speaking ability by born in India), then in front of Westerners to show "Free Tibet" banner to make a new event. Then the local government will come to question the tour agency. Even it proved the agency innocent, it may already lose some of business due to the process. So for those tour agencies, even owned by ethnic Tibetans, tend to find out Han Chinese who can speak Tibetans and English as tour guide to avoid get in troubles. Now you can see how Tibetans frustration build up because all good jobs are not for them.

4. Chinese merchants and especially Hui merchants have some to blame too. They should hire more local Tibetans, but due to some culture differences--some of look down on Tibetans, they tend not give patient times to teach their Tibetan employees, but rather to hire some of Han and Hui migrant workers to save the efforts and money.

5. Local security and police are little bit too sensitive sometimes. In other area, like Kham of Sichuan, you can have a Tibetan flag and Dalai Lama picture in the home and temple without bothered by police. Also Tibetan students in Beijing can have Dalai Lama's picture without much trouble. There are some Tibetans who love to be part of China complained that Lhasa is too much a police state and Beijing is a free world.

6. Local police forces (100% ethnic Tibetans) need to make changes too. Their attitude--"Don't accuse Han to oppress you, I am Tibetan, and I will beat you up, so what." may need to give way.

7. Tibet is developed too fast. With such tremendous changes in this few years, people may feel lost of the comfortable zone. The traditional Tibetan culture does feel threatened by the influence of changes. Of course, even the most conservative monks will pick up cell phone and Internet very soon, but there are some of need to address people's confusing and they are need to promote the study of how to evolve the culture.

For all those concerns, I think China needs to do more than today's policy. I would like to see following things happen:

1. Limit the Han and Hui migrant workers that in direct competition of local Tibetans. Promoting co-ownership in business between Han/Hui with Tibetans by preference of banking loan.

2. Supply financial and teaching resources for job training on local Tibetans for enough skill on the job market.

3. Promote Tibetan products--culture and craft in whole China by creating jobs in coast China that Tibetans can have.

In other front, talk with India to drive Tibet Youth Congress out of India. Then at a right time, resume the talk with Dalai Lama.

My suggestion can use in Xinjiang too.

The comment above was posted by sha at March 18, 2008 01:21 PM unofficial Xinjiang time.

DYN,

Read the report. Many Hans are save by Tibetans. Don't use your anger against Tibetans, but those rioters. Every ethnic group has bad apples.

The comment above was posted by sha at March 18, 2008 01:32 PM unofficial Xinjiang time.

to sha:
You are almost right, but
"Limit the Han and Hui migrant workers that in direct competition of local Tibetans." is absolutely a BAD idea.

The only method to insure the peace of Tibet or XinJiang is to make the population of Han Chinese overwhelm that of the minorities in these provinces.

The comment above was posted by dyn at March 18, 2008 01:44 PM unofficial Xinjiang time.

dyn,

You are wrong. Both Tibet and Xinjiang have an average 21 population. That is a very volatile factor. We need to create economic development that local people can enjoy. Otherwise, you marginalize the minority group and make them 2nd rate citizen in their own homeland. That is not the way it supposed to be.

It is not just about minority. It is local policy. For example, if you have big unemployment in Beijing for residents, you cannot import labors from Shanghai to take all those jobs Beijing folks deserve. That is local politics.

You think about to overflow the areas with Han showed that you only trust Han for insure the peace. Do you believe if we don't have majority support of Uighur and Tibetan, we probably will not in this kind of small conflict but rather a huge one? Why we need to punish our own brothers--Uighurs and Tibetans for peace?

The true peace is for all of us to leave a good life which includes to ensure good jobs for our local folks. I even hope one day CCP can open the party to people who have religious believe. The party should be more resemble old offical-scholar class in China. It is for professional administation and not for ideology. So a Christian, a Catholic, a Jew (you, Michael), a Lama, an Iman, etc. can have party membership too.

The comment above was posted by sha at March 18, 2008 01:56 PM unofficial Xinjiang time.

Sha,

For good PR, we should simply silence dyn. But the man, even though foolish enough to speak aloud what his heart truly believes, has a point. Even though your kumbaya version of world is admirable.

First let's admit that we have a problem. If you haven't read
"Peter Hessler piece, I highly recommend you do so.

Our current policy in Tibet is not working! now let's get down to the business of finding a solution.

Let's look at what would serve Chinese national interest best. I wouldn't leave anything off the table including quitting Tibet.

How is Chinese national interest being served by holding on to Tibet?(Don't give me any bullshit about sacredness of territory, those are fairy tales for children.) Let's proceed with our cost/benefit analysis.

Pro:

A. It offers strategic depth, aka a huge natural buffer in the form of Tibetan plateau circled by Himalayan range. Given the longest ranged missles that India has currently in her arsenal, she would have to move the missle silos to Assam border with Tibet to even hope of them landing anywhere with economic significance greater than grass and yak dungs. (okay, Lhasa and Shigatse is in Indian missle range, big deal)

B. Potential resources like mineral deposits. Recent exploration has found huge copper and coal deposit in Mongolia, so why not Tibet.

Con:

A. Economic drain. According to Hessler, "in 1996 China spent some $600 million in Tibet....for that same year the United States gave a total of $800 million dollars in aid to all of Africa"

There is no hope for China ever to recover these "investments" unless large deposit of metal or oil can be discovered AND recovered from Tibet.


B.Resentment from local groups (read monks) that are not benefiting from Chinese rule.

C.Dent to China's international relation/reputation. Let's face it. Dalai boys ran a tighter PR campaign than our ministry of propaganda.


At surface, it seem would be relatively easy for China to pull out of TAR (Tibet Autonomous Region) be done with it. We would still have plenty of buffer in Qinghai and Tibetan area of Sichuan. We can always to pull our weights to make sure Tibet not get too cosy with India and US (carrots=aid and stick=threat of reinvasion) that it be use for staging ground for any anti-China activity.

But would Tibetan be satisfied with just TAR? The position of so-called Tibetan government in exile is that "Tibet" includes all area of Tibetan population (includes Qinghai, Western Sichuan, Northern Yunnan and part of Gansu) even though Dalai lama never controlled these other areas at time of Tibet liberation.

Looked at big protest at Labrang monastery in Xiahe, Gansu right now. Would these monks be satisfied of left out of a Dalai controled Tibet?

While pulling out of TAR would be easy, to separate out administratively these other Tibetan area from their respective provinces would be a nightmare. Plus the fact that many these area hold mixed population of Tibetan,Han and Hui would just add to the trouble.

Let's look at downside of keeping Tibet in China.

A. Economic burden: it's expensive to foot the bill of Tibetan government budget plus the infrastructure development that will be never repaid economically AND the cost of military presence.

Let's assume everything come to $1 billion a year.
Well compare that to the money we have wasted investing in American financial industry (Blackstone, we paid $1 billion to aquire stake in Bear Stern last year etc, Don't even get me started on our increasingly worthless piles of American dollars and treasury bonds), this is chump change. China could simply afford to throw away $1 billion at Tibet every year.

B.Resentment of Tibetans undermined by Chinese control (read monks) We will get to this later

C.China's international reputation. Please, even without Tibet, West will find fault with China. Before Lhasa riot, we are being blame for everything from encourage Darfur genocide to suppression of monks in Burma.

Look at experience of Russia. Even after Russia discarded the Soviet system, Western media paints a very negative picture about Putin's government. Why? Because Putin is no western lapdog and Russia continue to have divergent interest from the West.

We give too much credit to these western wanker hacks if we think their opinion worth that much in the bigger scheme of things.

Ironically, We have much to learn from America. America under George Bush has really push unilateralism (i.e, US will do as US please). As much as anti-American feeling swell in the world, anybody recalling groups advocate IOC to deny Olympics to Chicago because of Iraq?

We just have to build up our power now so that one day clueless Chinese youth will start demanding changes in other countries' behavior and they would have to listen! Meanwhile f*ck uninformed opinion of the West and let's do what's in our interest, okay?

So my crude cost/benefit analysis show that China has very little incentive to let Tibet become independent.

Now let's figure out how to better integrate Tibet into China. Monks will always create trouble for Chinese rule because their self interest as former ruling class of Tibet is being undermined by Chinese control. They have the least to gain under China yet most to profit when Chinese leave.

Let's model ourselves after success. The most successful integration of new territory in recent history is American conquest of the American West. I say without irony or sarcasm that we have much to learn from American success.

Capitalism, private ownership and enlightened self-interest will be a powerful force that forever change the face of Tibet (i mean literally, after witnessing the ugly race riot targeting Han Chinese, specifically Sichuanese, my people, this will be a sweet revenge).

I propose that we legalize outright land ownership. Currently all land belongs to the Chinese State. We can start auction off "public
land" in Tibet to any enterprising Han Chinese (I prefer that Tibetans will be excluded from the auction, but to give outward appearance of not be a completely racist operation, we could include everyone but provide generous state loans to Han Chinese wanting to bid). We give special allowance to Hans in Tibet to bear arms to defend their property.

Essentially any Han Chinese wishing to own land will be given the opportunity and financial incentive to do so in Tibet. Just like American cowboys displace Indians and Aussie ranchers displace aborigines, we will see Han ranchers and farmers taking over in Tibet. This will open the flood gate of Han migration into Tibet. This will escalate the conflict but by allowing new Han landowner to own arms to protect their new properties, the numbers will take care the problem. People will fight tooth and nails for their properties.

Oh yeah, monks could have complete religious freedom. Just no more state subsidies. They could be supported by donations by local Tibetans but no oversea fundings allowed. Impoverished Tibetan lay masses will not be able to support the expense of the these huge monastery. And the monastery will be increasingly marginalized as there support base shrink.

Tibet will be changed forever. That will be the price to pay for targeting and indescriminate killing of Han people on march days of 2008.

The comment above was posted by Cao Meng De at March 18, 2008 05:05 PM unofficial Xinjiang time.

The url to
Peter Hessler's piece on Altantic

Thanks to China Law Blog to blog it.

The comment above was posted by Cao Meng De at March 18, 2008 05:23 PM unofficial Xinjiang time.

Yes we should condemn the random killings of Han Chinese, but we should also keep in mind that these protests began when the police tried to prevent peaceful protests, and that this incident doesn't reflect on all Tibetans who may oppose the CCP. Also, just as you say Chinese oppression doesn't justify Tibetan rampages, Tibetan rampages don't justify Chinese oppression, and in the long run it is still the CCP who is in control and the Tibetans who are at risk of becoming a minority in their own homeland. The Tibetans who killed people and looted shops are victims as well, and condemning and punishing them doesn't end the problem, no more then Israeli attacks in Palestine prevents suicide bombings. This sort of thing is easy for us to condemn- but we're all sitting in our comfortable homes, in our powerful countries, with no fear of our culture disappearing.
Finally, I'd like to say that I'm disgusted by some of the remarks I see in the comments- some of the commenters need to realize that things like colonialism and racism stopped being considered acceptable by most Westerners a long time ago!

The comment above was posted by J B at March 18, 2008 06:01 PM unofficial Xinjiang time.

These Tibetans have a great teacher: The Chinese Communist Party.

During the 1967 riots by the Chinese Communist Party in Hong Kong, for months the CCP members used home made bombs, gasoline bombs to terrorize the city, killed citizens of Hong Kong. There were dozens of bombs in streets of Hong Kong for months. Mass marches of CCP members trashing shops and homes. The Chinese government loved the CCP riots so much that the leader of the riots was awarded the highest honour of the Hong Kong SAR with a medal.

Similarly, these Tibetan rioters should be equally honoured as the CCP riot leader in Hong Kong.

Furthermore, riots by Hans against people they don't like. See the number of people killed in the Cultural revolution ? And Hans killing Mongols and Japanese at the end of their reign in China. I think the Hans set a great example for the Tibetans how to deal with oppressive powers.

No, the Tibetans are doing it wrong. They should have stay quiet and continue to suffer the suppressive oppression. But, like what Chinese do best, they should say: "The Hans do it too".

The comment above was posted by Bill at March 18, 2008 09:05 PM unofficial Xinjiang time.

By sending away all foreign reporters, including those from Hong Kong, China has shown that it doesn't really want the world to know what really is going on. We all know how unbiased China Daily and Xinhua are. And with China barring all foreign reporters, the reports from China Daily and Xinhua must be read with that fact in mind.

The comment above was posted by Tina at March 18, 2008 09:09 PM unofficial Xinjiang time.

@J B
"these protests began when the police tried to prevent peaceful protests"
It was a strategy. We confess we misunderestimated our deliberately prepared enemy, but no longer!

The comment above was posted by chengduboy at March 18, 2008 09:40 PM unofficial Xinjiang time.

Now people are going to nitpick about what the Tibetans did to Han colonists. Remember that the Han control Tibet's banking system and are the major employers, and Tibetans have been being imprisoned and tortured during over 50 years of occupation by China.

And while some point at what Ghandi did with peaceful protest as the "proper" way, China has already demonstrated how it deals with large scale sit in protests...with tanks.

The comment above was posted by nanheyangrouchuan at March 18, 2008 09:52 PM unofficial Xinjiang time.

http://www.phayul.com/photogallery/flash/2008/

The comment above was posted by Lucas at March 18, 2008 10:02 PM unofficial Xinjiang time.

READ: http://www.amazon.com/o/ASIN/0679746323/103-2202536-1837410?SubscriptionId=0AM07842GGE1QVDN6KR2

The comment above was posted by Lucas at March 18, 2008 10:04 PM unofficial Xinjiang time.

I think the destruction done by these riots and their attack on civilians are more facts then fiction.

Here are two report of two Canadian tourist at Lhasa during the riot:
http://www.thestar.com/article/346769
http://www.thestar.com/article/346763

And here is another blogger currently still in Lhasa:
http://kadfly.blogspot.com/

seem pretty consistent.

The comment above was posted by Tom at March 18, 2008 10:11 PM unofficial Xinjiang time.

Quoting the above site in case it is blocked:
"1. Mao became a Communist at the age of 27 for purely pragmatic reasons: a job and income from the Russians.

2. Far from organizing the Long March in 1934, Mao was nearly left behind by his colleagues who could not stand him and had tried to oust him several times. The aim of the March was to link up with Russia to get arms. The Reds survived the March because Chiang Kai-shek let them, in a secret horse-trade for his son and heir, whom Stalin was holding hostage in Russia.

3. Mao grew opium on a large scale.

4. After he conquered China, Mao's over-riding goal was to become a superpower and dominate the world: "Control the Earth," as he put it.

5. Mao caused the greatest famine in history by exporting food to Russia to buy nuclear and arms industries: 38 million people were starved and slave-driven to death in 1958-61. Mao knew exactly what was happening, saying: "half of China may well have to die.""

----So much for "Serving the people."

The comment above was posted by Lucas at March 18, 2008 10:11 PM unofficial Xinjiang time.

Okay let's get back to talking about those al qaeda female hijacker uighurs and how they are soooo gonna destroy and PWN the bird's nest by flying an old 1960s China Western Airlines Tupolev into it, this tibetan stuff is so last week.

The comment above was posted by Lucas at March 18, 2008 10:19 PM unofficial Xinjiang time.

I'm not sure how anyone can make judgments on any of this without any kind of unbiased information. Both sources are tainted from the get-go. You've got Xinhua and China Daily that are clearly biased for one viewpoint, but you've got the Tibetan exiles supporting the Dalai Lama telling everyone something else, but they're obviously compromised in their objectivity as well. I find the media coverage of this to just be absurd in that they rush to jump to the side of the Dalai Lama, but they don't even recognize some key concepts in that Tibet was NOT a paradise before the CCP, it was much worse, and that all past Dalai Lamas lived like kings. Nevertheless, the CCP reacted in the completely wrong way on this one, I'm not sure how they got it so wrong.

I've seen videos of some pretty crazy stuff. Buildings being burned to pieces, people being assaulted in the streets, and just other absolutely random violence. It doesn't matter whether it's Han Chinese persecuting Tibetans, or Tibetans persecuting Han Chinese, all violence of this nature should be condemned by international bodies. Yes, the CCP did oppress the Tibetans, but please read this essay by Michael Parenti (http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html), and you'll find that they were actually worse before than now. Nevertheless, the Chinese government has a long way to go in terms of progress in Tibet.

To follow-up from Michael, Gandhi said "an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind", Jesus said "turn the other cheek", and Martin Luther King, Jr. said "the hope of a secure and livable world lies with disciplined nonconformists who are dedicated to justice, peace and brotherhood."

I see none of the things that Dr. King talked about in Tibet now. I see devastation, and I see the destruction of ethnic relations between Tibetans and Han Chinese. Someone needs to pick up the pieces from this, but I don't think either party will be willing to for a while afterwards.

The comment above was posted by Yiu-cho at March 18, 2008 10:25 PM unofficial Xinjiang time.

Cao Meng De, your analysis and proposal is the greatest I have heard so far on this blog, please translate it into Chinese and post it on all Chinse forums.

We need your brilliant idea to enlighten all level of Chinese people, including CCCP, many members of whom are too constrained in their world knowledge and world view because their own media restriction have effect on themselves, making their mind that of country cousin's, kind and naive, unlike the sneaky west.

The comment above was posted by Urgent at March 18, 2008 11:28 PM unofficial Xinjiang time.

Hey, look, the Dalai Lama agrees with me:

"He said he remained committed to only nonviolent agitation and greater autonomy for Tibetans, not independence. He condemned the burning of Chinese flags and attacks on Chinese property and called violence “suicidal” for the Tibetan cause."

From an article in the New York Times. (here)

The comment above was posted by michael at March 19, 2008 12:39 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.

There is no option for China to quit Tibet. If you do today, tommrrow you will see a US military base showing up there and threats the heart of China. China is not strong enough now and have to play defensively. Since we still have a Taiwan problem and a potential Asian NATO to break up, there is no soluation to retreat from west border. You can look on Russia for how NATO eastward movement and US northward movement into Central Asia.

One thing is for sure--there is no way China will quit Tibet and Xijiang. In contrast, China even need to push influence into Pakistan, Kazahkstan, even Iran to pretect the country.

Now that not mean we cannot do a better job. Your perscription of flooding Tibet with Han immigration aka. American West expansion is not doable. Tibet is not a place can sustain that kind of huge population without causing the disaster for the envorinment. It will not just wipe out the Tibetan population, but due to the damage on major water sources on China and also India and Southeast Asia, that will be a diaster to wipe off a huge chunk of world population.

What we need to do is to respect Tibetan culture a little more by slowing down the development a little bit. Give people a little bit time to adapt to change. In the business side, you will see Han business people win most of battles around the whole world, but you will see a lot of resentment against their success such as in Southeast Asia, or just like how Jews experiened around Europe. Develope Chongqiang and Chendu like Beijing and Shanghai may just resolve many problems of our Sichuanese brothers and sisters. Meanwhile, promote the co-onwerships among Han, Hui and Tibetans to let them become stackholders of economic benefits. Just like in Malaysia, same kind of programs reduced the ethnic tensions a lot.

Mainwhile, I would recommend that opening lanuage schools for Han Chinese to learn our other languages and histories --such as Tibetan, Uighur, Mongol, Miao, etc. If every Han in Tibet can speak Tibetan, that is at least a good start.

About Monks, we have to accept they have their positions in their culture and society, and there are a need to include them into the policy making process. Of course, there is no way a back on the old mix of religion and state, but as I suggested that if we keep hold the ideology as the requirement for the Party, we will not able to include the talents and groups who have religious believe.

The comment above was posted by sha at March 19, 2008 05:44 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.

@ Sha,

Your suggestion of Han respecting the cultures of Tibet and other minorities, as well as opening up language schools for Han to learn minority languages, is very good indeed, if only it can be materialized. In fact, the opposite is true in East Turkestan (aka Xinjiang), where Uyghur language education, which has a long and glorious history, is being eradicated for the sake of so called "Bilingual Education (Shuangyu Jiaoxue)", which is in fact a single language - Chinese that is - education.

The comment above was posted by heverci at March 19, 2008 07:17 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.

If Tibetans did exactly same things to Han in much of eastern China, Han people would revolt too, and with the similar violence. As a Han, I have sympathy and empathy towards Tibetans. They should have rights to self-determination. When will we be enlightened?

The comment above was posted by I am a Han at March 19, 2008 07:29 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.

Nice to hear some reason from I am a Han- every country has done shameful things, and it is necessary for Chinese as well as Westerners to acknowledge them and oppose them, rather than spread ethnic hatred and advocate revenge!

The comment above was posted by J B at March 19, 2008 07:59 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.

Strongly urge the abolition of autonomy of XingJiang and Tibet!!!
What does automomy mean?
Automony means that Tibetan and Ugyhur are host, we Han Chinese are all guests???
oh? we are guests in our homeland?
a funny word!
This word have been giving the splisttist reasons to mirage independence.

The comment above was posted by dyn at March 19, 2008 08:32 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.

to I am a Han:
You are a Han Jian!
pei!

The comment above was posted by dyn at March 19, 2008 08:34 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.

The Dalai Lama says the Chinese often treat Tibetans as second-class citizens in their own land.
==========================
pay attention to what Dalai said.
He is right!
In China:
Tibetans and Ugyhurs are second-class citizens.
But
We Han Chinese are third-class citizens.
The first-class citizens are you westerners.

The comment above was posted by dyn at March 19, 2008 08:40 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.

Yeah, I think 911 also have some reason too.
What could the muslim do the same things to the US
and the Jews, US and Jews would certainly eradicate them out.

The comment above was posted by I am an American at March 19, 2008 08:41 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.

In China, We Han Chinese are scared to Conflict with Tibetans or Ugyhurs.
Let alone westerners.
Because our Han Chinese Police will only take away Han Chinese.

The comment above was posted by dyn at March 19, 2008 08:50 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.

No body f*ck with Sichuanese.

There are some disturbing news. For those of you who understand Cantonese or could read Chinese subtitles

There is a footage on Youtube of Hong Kong TV reporting on Lhasa.

The first half segment talk about about Hong Kong TV reporters in Lhasa had been sent home by Tibetan government authority. Their tapes confisticated. Then they show few segments that apparently survived, of armed police squads doing door to door search in Muslim quarters of Tibet.

They (Hong Kong reporter) didn't comment on the search in Muslim quarter. But there is rumor on Chinese BBS claim that Muslims (Hui) are planning large scale reprisal for burning of their shops. Muslims are banding together in Lhasa, and they reputedly plan to burn down Jokhang Monastery.
That's why the was a heavy security precaution in the Muslim quarter.

I am very emotional right now. I understand our government didn't want the event in Lhasa to escalate. But hell, if I was in Lhasa on Friday, I would have been target of violence. Cracking down on Muslims to prevent reprisal, WTF! We should supply weapons to Muslims of Lhasa. Let them burn down Jokhang Monastery. Let them take their revenge on Tibetans.

Maybe it's time to sweep aside the largely ethnic Tibetan police force in Lhasa. These fuckers stood by while their ethnic brethens burn, loot and murder Han and Muslims. Let's send in largely Sichuanese PLA army boys in Lhasa, and let them handle the situation as they see please.

The comment above was posted by Cao Meng De at March 19, 2008 09:15 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.

This is what China mean by restrain.
http://www.tchrd.org/press/2008/pr20080318c.html

Chinese Communist Government has no moral authority whatsover to criticize Dalai Lama.

The comment above was posted by tashi at March 19, 2008 09:19 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.

By the way, I am fully aware of the historical significance of Jokhang Monastery, its linkage with Princesse Wen Cheng and its hosting of Sino-Tibetan treaty of 822 AD. But the so-called symbolism of Han-Tibetan friendship is useless now. A line has been crossed on March 14th 2008, there is no going back. If they want a full scale Han-Tibetan ethnic conflict. I say bring it on!

The comment above was posted by Cao Meng De at March 19, 2008 09:34 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.

Use nation violence to confront the violence from another nation!

The comment above was posted by dyn at March 19, 2008 09:48 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.

here is a few more accounts from western tourists in Lhasa during the peaceful protects:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article3578941.ece

The comment above was posted by tom at March 19, 2008 09:50 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.

让暴风雨来得更猛烈些吧!
只要还有一个中国人活着,任何人也休想分裂中国。

Let the storm come a bit more fiercely!
As long as there is a Chinese person alive, any person who definitely will never split China.

The comment above was posted by dyn at March 19, 2008 09:54 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.

Sha,

We don't not need to a huge number of people to settle Tibet. American West today is still sparsely populated. In fact there are almost same amount of cattles in the American Plain states now as there were buffaloes used to roam the Great Plain. You see, it's matter of replacement. Cattles replaced Buffaloes, main source of protein for the plain Indians. White immigrant ranchers (there were as many Germans and other Europeans moved to the west as there were population transfer from American Eastern seaboard) replaced Sioux, Crow and Navajoes.

There are actually 1/3 of TAR that had been designate as a nature preserve right now. I believe that's a mistake. We should opened up Qiang Tang nature reserve,25 million hectares, for would be Han migrants like Brazil is using Amazon to increase beef production.

Right now only Tibetan antelopes and wild asses roam in Qiang Tang. Let's lift the ban on hunting of Tibetan antelopes, sell their fur as Shahtoosh
to silly and vain Western women, and use the land for cattle production. With the new Tibetan railway, we can now supply the increasing demand for meat among the newly affluent urban dwellers in the east. Environment be damned. When we are to as rich as Americans, then let our children and grand children try to clean it up, perhaps we could move our polluting factories to Africa then.

It's impossible to compromise with the Tibetan monasteries. They represent an alternative pole of political power in Tibet. In order to keep Tibet Chinese, this parallel political power structure in Tibetan monasteries must be destroyed. The only way to do that is to drain its support, the ethnic Tibetan.

Tibetans are deeply religious people. It's a mistake to think that they could be entice away from their religion by pursuit of money and materialism. Religion is their identity! The only
realistic way of ruling Tibet and not rely on massive Han migration would be to co-opt the former Tibetan ruling class (Dalai and his monks) like back in the days of Qing empire. Let natives rule natives. But we decided not to do that in 1950s, remember? Now it's too late to go back. So only way left forward if we want to keep Tibet is massive Han infusion (or some non Tibetan infusion, Like how it was done with Japanese immigration in Hawaii).

Let's take care of the problem now, and our children or grandchildren can feel sorry or apologize for what we have done later when there will be no more Tibet. Then we can allow the leftover Tibetans to open casinos.

The comment above was posted by Cao Meng De at March 19, 2008 10:21 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.

Dyn,

Dude, let's not resort to empty gesture of slogan shouting. Let's put our head together to try methodically figure out a way to "troubleshoot" the situation, shall we?

Michael,

Even though we would disagree on many issues, I have to thank you for providing this forum and keep it open to everyone. Thanks!

The comment above was posted by Cao Meng De at March 19, 2008 10:32 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.

@heverci,

I think it maybe possible, especially after this Lhasa debacle. It shows that just by simply development is not going to create the ethnic harmony.

But if we try to look with a long perspective, maybe nations, sovereignty, and even terrotery, will not view as important as today. Maybe the common problems we human being faced, such as global warming, water scarcity, desert encroaching, and resource sharing become real focus for us. Under those condition, ethnic, religious and cultural difference may not be that important.

If we understand this, and look this past 30 years changes in China, and look forward, maybe a future China could be some kind of a more unified EU. So any kind of violence, ethnic conflict, and nationalism may not a good method to address the problem.

I can imagine a picture if today's Chinese government fall apart. The Uighur, Khazak, and Mongol may stage some fierce battles for energy resources in Junger region because all of three can use historic reasons for that. And in Qinghai, Hui and Tibetan will kill each other if you know the history of their conflict. For all those battle of resources and lands, you will have religions to draw supports from like Outer and Inner Mongols, Central Asians, and even Arabs into the mess. And I even not mention Han. A small province of Sichuan may run over every minorities group. That will be a much, much hellish picture to envision.

But do we have other options? Well, we have NO CHOICE but too find other options. If you look back in history, one reason that China has to assert the direct rules over both Xinjiang (aka ET) and Tibet due to the Russian and British threats. Of course, Tibetans and Uighurs should not pay the price for the this, but you know the history is never fair. We cannot change what previous generations did but at least we should work together to change what now and what in the future. If you understand this, you can understand Chinese elites probably still in a fear of such threats projected by Western countries that trying to derail China's raise. So that is why any local inspired independence movement which is backed up by those Western countries, will be naturally viewed as the intentional threat to against the Chinese nation, and dealt with an iron fist.

But if China is in a stronger position compare with Western countries, this fear will be diminished. There will be probably less strict mentality in power establishment. Real autonomy or even many of other creative forms will not be a problem. You may think this is a pipe dream, but I think the next 10-20 years, we may see that--around 2020-30.

I think for many Han people, they need to understand many ethnic minorities would show appreciation if they bring economic development that can really benefit the local people. Respect the culture, custom, language, history, and religion will be a must.

The comment above was posted by sha at March 19, 2008 11:52 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.

Cao Meng De

"Dude, let's not resort to empty gesture of slogan shouting. Let's put our head together to try methodically figure out a way to "troubleshoot" the situation, shall we?"

That is because they are many people like Dyn in China whose information channel is very limited so dont know how to analyze the whole situation.

You should really try to share your world view and knowledge with them bying educating your theory in Chinese forums.

The comment above was posted by Reader at March 19, 2008 12:36 PM unofficial Xinjiang time.

@Urgent

@Reader

Thank you for your kind words. I have no access to Chinese input sofware (lame excuse, I know, I am still looking for my windows OS CD so I could install East Asian language pack on my computer).

Having spend half of my life in China and another half in US, has made me rather pessimistic about my chance of "educating" people. IMHO, most people in the world, whether Western, Chinese or Kenyan are just too plain stupid to see beyond the blinders put on them by their own media, government, upbringing.

We shouldn't be too had on Dyn though. It's not an unique China thing, it's a human thing. Most people in West are "educate" stupid by their own media.

We are at least lucky that compare to US political leaders, current Chinese leadership look like bunch of super geniuses.

I highly recommend reading new post by China Matters and Moon over Alabama on what may really be going on behind the scenes of so-called Tibetan uprising.

In fact these intelligent bloggers plus few others (China Law Blog comes to mind) would have more to teach to our Chinese brethren than I could ever hope to.

Cheers

The comment above was posted by Cao Meng De at March 19, 2008 01:40 PM unofficial Xinjiang time.

@Sha

What do you mean "small province of Sichuan"

There were 100 million of us back in 1982 census, and that was 26 years ago! Be afraid people! Very afraid!

But if you play nice, we will introduce you to our hot cousins : )

The comment above was posted by Cao Meng De at March 19, 2008 01:50 PM unofficial Xinjiang time.

Um, to the admin., would you mind not allowing all the name-calling (eg, calling someone a "hanjian") and the advocacy of killing Tibetans to be posted? I don't think I've heard this degree of racism ever before, except maybe (just maybe) when I read about anti-Japanese sentiment in the US during World War Two.
Seriously, please. People get put into jail for saying these sorts of things in most countries.

The comment above was posted by J B at March 19, 2008 05:07 PM unofficial Xinjiang time.

Maybe you want to make a post out of this Mike?

http://www.freetibet.org/press/kirtiphotos.html

The comment above was posted by BJD at March 19, 2008 05:08 PM unofficial Xinjiang time.

JB,

have you heard of freedom of speech? In US, it's protected by First Amendment. Something backwards Old European country like Germany could learn something from.

The comment above was posted by Cao Meng De at March 19, 2008 05:22 PM unofficial Xinjiang time.

@Cao Meng De
>We should supply weapons to Muslims of Lhasa.
>Let them burn down Jokhang Monastery.
>Let them take their revenge on Tibetans.

What? You haven't had enough? Is this a 连船计?
Btw, I am Zhu Ge Liang. Long time no see.

The comment above was posted by chengduboy at March 19, 2008 05:23 PM unofficial Xinjiang time.

@Chenduboy

Hahaha. Long time no see, Mr.Kong Ming! Please don't flame me this time. I promise I will play nice.

The comment above was posted by Cao Meng De at March 19, 2008 05:59 PM unofficial Xinjiang time.

Michael:

Besides Xinhua, some western news sites did bring up the violent nature of the rioters, so you don't have to solely rely on the "CCP mouthpiece" to notice it's not a "peaceful demonstration". Here are a few examples:

'Oh my God, someone has a gun ...'

garudian.com.uk

"There are still people on the streets but only Tibetans - if they see anyone Chinese they throw stones.

"Three times people raised their arms and then when they saw I was white they stopped it.

"I saw three people assaulting a man - I was 50 metres away, but I think he was Chinese. They kicked him and then one man had a knife and used it. He was lying on the floor and the man put the knife in his back, like he wanted to see he was dead.

"I had to get away, there were people throwing stones.

"This area used to be a place where Tibetans and the Chinese were friendly."

'They stopped attacking the boy when I rushed forward'
timesonline.co.uk


"At the outset, the violence was also directed at passers-by who appeared to be ethnic Chinese. I saw one boy on a bicycle and people throwing stones towards him. As a foreigner, like other foreigners in Lhasa, I was treated with respect by the demonstrators. When I rushed forward to stop them attacking the boy, they ceased throwing their stones."

'I can't just let this guy die on the ground'
thestar.com

A traveller from Toronto was walking on Beijing Road in Lhasa on Friday afternoon when he saw a crowd of Tibetans beating a young Han Chinese man and two women.

As he watched, stunned, the crowd with sticks and metal clubs beat the man, about 20, until he fell to the ground unconscious.

Then he remembered two years earlier, when rioters in Brussels beat him to the ground and dislocated his shoulder.

"I told myself, `I can't just let this guy die on the ground,'"Justin Winfield said Saturday via a cellphone from Lhasa. "I remembered what happened to me. I couldn't let that happen to somebody else."



"orgy of violence swept Lhasa"
news.com.au



Mr Kenwood said he saw four or five Tibetan men on Friday "mercilessly'' stoning and kicking a Chinese motorcyclist.

"Eventually they got him on the ground, they were hitting him on the head with stones until he lost consciousness.

"I believe that young man was killed,'' Mr Kenwood said, but added he could not be sure.

He said he saw no Tibetan deaths.



The comment above was posted by bingster at March 19, 2008 07:56 PM unofficial Xinjiang time.

Yes, it's wrong for either side to be violent, and I don't want to excuse any T@b@tans that did hurt innocents - however, what do the Chinese expect when they invade someones country, eviserate their culture, prevent any form of peaceful protest, and even try to control the reincarnations of their spiritual leaders? The Chinese are the ones with all the material power here and they are the ones ultimately responsible. I would hope that the Ti@e@ans would adopt the tactics of Gandhi - but then the Chinese aren't the British - who could be cruel, but had their limits. The Chinese don't seem to have limits.

The comment above was posted by jay at March 19, 2008 09:04 PM unofficial Xinjiang time.

is dyn a CCP member?

The comment above was posted by miloservic at March 19, 2008 10:00 PM unofficial Xinjiang time.

@Cao Meng De

@Jay

I just mean Sichuan is a small province in WHOLE China. When Tibetans staged violences agasint Sichuan and Hui, then all Tibetans in Sichuan (Kham) and Qinghai/Gansu(Amdo) to show their support for this, that will be a far impact than people outside to imagine.

If China pulls off Tibet today, you will have three wars going your way:

1. In Tibet (TAR)--you will have pro-China factions and pro-Independence factions fight to the death. If you think the stone someone to death is voilence, then you haven't see the eye-gorging stuff yet. That is the one pops up offen when pro-China Tibetans fight with pro-Independence Tibetans back in 1956-1959.

2. In Qinghai and Gansu--you will see the old day of Hui vs. Tibetans fight out. Burning down Muslim's Mosque is really not a good way to send friendly message.

3. In Sichuan--well, there are over 100M Sichuanese who are probably among the toughest people you can find in Han rank.

Is that what kind of future the Free Tibet kind hope for?

The comment above was posted by sha at March 19, 2008 11:36 PM unofficial Xinjiang time.

Michael, thanks for making this forum available. I don't have any substance to add to the discussion/dialogue, but appreciate access to others who have ground truth and a range of opinions. Much better than I can get here, stateside, with our current MSM situation.

The comment above was posted by rick at March 20, 2008 12:53 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.

Foreign tourists witnessed the insane attackes on Han Chinese and Hui Muslims:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/03/18/wtibet718.xml
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23401794-25837,00.html

The comment above was posted by Huaxia at March 20, 2008 01:25 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.

What type of Buddist monk is Dalai Lama? What brand of Buddism is he practising? Did you ever see him show any compassion and sympathy to the innocent Chinese civilians beaten up, killed or burnt to death by his Tibetan mobs? Did you see him ever condemn the violence by this fellow Tibetans? I guess a Han Chiense's life means nothing to him. Fake Buddist!!!! He is a fake Buddist? Nobel peace prize? What a joke!!!!! The Tibetan mobs who set people on fire and cut people's ears off should be punished according to law. The kind of crimes should not be tolerated by any government on the face of the earth!!!!

The comment above was posted by Huaxia at March 20, 2008 01:29 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.

Have you heard that his holiness the Dalai Lama has threatened to resign from his post as the leader of the Tibetan exile if the violence continues? Have you ever heard that he offered an autonomy to Chinese regime instead of seeking independence, in exchange for a genuine talk on the Tibetan issue, years ago? I bet you never hear that in China.

The comment above was posted by heverci at March 20, 2008 07:05 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.

正视历史的中国人为啥不承认120万TIBET大屠杀?
什么时候中共像德国人一样跪下向TIBETAN谢罪?

The comment above was posted by zhang at March 20, 2008 10:42 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.

@zhang
我对此比较悲观。你看,世界上最正义,最善良的国家美国都不能正视正在伊拉克发生的巨大灾难,你要想把历史操作得像一份法律判决书就更困难了。Good luck.

The comment above was posted by chengduboy at March 20, 2008 11:25 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.

@Zhang: the 1.2m number is a myth, it's been debunked long time ago. But of course you are welcome to repeat it 1000 times to make it a "fact"

The following is excerpted from "Tibet, Tibet -- A Personal History
of a Lost Land" written by Patrick French, a founding member and
a former director of Free Tibet Campaign.


"When I looked at the origin of the 1.2 million figure more closely,
it turned out that it had first appeared in public in the mid-1980s.
In response to demands from foreign supporters of the Tibetan
cause, the exiled government had come up with the sort of
systematically researched numbers that were needed to impress
Western legislators. The key thing was to have charts, lists, tables
and data ? or what looked like data. A commission was established
in Dharamsala under a respected official, Kungo Dhakden-la, who
sent envoys to the main Tibetan settlements in India, Nepal and
Bhutan to examine the claims of recent refugees. At the end of
this process, it was concluded that precisely 1,207,387 Tibetans
had died between 1950 and 1979 from starvation, fighting, torture,
execution, suicide and struggle sessions.


This figure began to be used in the exiles' publications and in the
Dalai Lama's speeches. The crucial moment in the development of its
credibility as a serious statistic came in 1987, when the US House of
Representatives attached a resolution to a State Department
Authorization bill which included the claim that "over 1 million
Tibetans" had died "as a direct result of the political instability,
executions, imprisonment, and wide-scale famine engendered by the
policies of the People's Republic of China in Tibet." The Chinese
government denounced this resolution in its usual heavy-handed way,
but it had lost the propaganda war. The assertion that there were
1.2 million Tibetan victims of Chinese genocide has been repeated
again since then, with the sheer weight of repetition making it
believable.


The exiled government, aware that this figure is generally accepted,
has kept a closed lid on the original survey and stopped outside
researchers from having access to the documentation on which it is
based. In media terms, this has worked to its benefit. In her 1990
book Tibet: Behind the Ice Curtain, the journalist Vanya Kewley
reported that Dharamsala "had only cross-checked the names of
1,207,487 [sic] Tibetans who had died." She thought that this figure
was sure to grow, since the exiles "have ready for international
verification list of more checked names of the Tibetan dead.
Undoubtedly the Tibetan government-in-exile has additional names and
figures but they punctiliously refuse to release them till their
exhaustive verification process is complete." Kewley's approach was
not unusual.


After a couple of days of debate within the Department of Information
and International Relations, I was allowed to look at paperwork
behind the survey. I was unsure why permission was given to me,
but it seemed that new officials in the department favored a policy
of
openness, and may have been unaware of the significance of what I
wanted to look at. I went through the material slowly, helped by a
young member of the staff, Topden, who had been born and brought
up in exile in India, and was soon to leave for the United States.
He tried to locate missing sections from the archives, and to explain
the accompanying documents.


After looking through the files for three days, it became clear to me
that the figure of 1.2 million Tibetans deaths resulting from Chinese
rule could not be accepted. The documentation came in twenty-two
sections, each divided into the regions of the ethnic Tibet: U-Tsang,
Kham and Amdo. Two sections were missing, with only the summaries
being available. The lists were broken down into males, females and
incarnate lamas, and included the likely cause of death. Much of the
basic structure of the survey was plausible. Escapees from a
particular village or place would report that several hundred people
had died of starvation between certain dates, or that a particular
number of monks had been executed. The survey was built up by
accumulating the evidence of these survivors and eye-witnesses.


There was however no lists of names, as had been promised, and in
most cases it looked as if no names had ever been recorded. The
most significant difficulties came with the insertion of seemingly
random figures into each section, and constant, unchecked
duplication.
The death tolls in some sparsely populated parts of northern and
eastern Tibet were unfeasibly high.


To take some examples: an account of the numbers killed in battle in
Amdo was inflated by a bald claim that fifty thousand people had died
fighting near Trigan; a document showed 13,574 people dying in
Labrang Tashikyil in 1959, but another document listed a further
fifteen
thousand killed in the same place during the same period; a figure of
69,517 executions in Amdo had no clear origin, and seemed to have
been take from a contentious report issued by the International
Commission of Jurists; a claim of 43,286 killed in fighting in Kham
was
accompanied by documentation for only around ten thousand; a single
interviewee claimed that twenty thousand people died in prisons near
Karong; a table of those tortured to death in Kham included ten
thousand who had already been listed under the heading of executions;
one informant asserted with no evidence that nineteen thousand people
had been executed near Kongbo; a captured Chinese publication stated
that 87,884 Tibetan rebels had been killed in central Tibet after the
uprising of 1959, but this figure was added to the existing figures
for U-Tsang, rather than being treated as a total. Even when I added
together all the numbers, credible or not, the total came to just
under 1.1 million, rather than 1.2 million.


Most disturbing of all was the fact that of the nearly 1.1 million
deaths listed, only 23,364 were female. This would have meant that
1.07 million victims were male, which was clearly impossible, given
that there were only around 1.25 million Tibetan men in 1950.

I was left with the unwelcome conclusion that this survey was a
well-intentioned but statistically useless attempt to justify Western
demands for data and tabulation. Briefly, I was tempted to suppress
this, and to report that the survey was generally believable, even if
there were some gaps in it. But I knew, after everything I had seen
in Tibet, that truth was more important than continuing to back the
cause in its present form. More realism was needed, not less, when
it came to Tibet. It was a land that had suffered for too long from
the
well-intentioned projections of visiting foreigners."


Conclusion: The figure was sheer fabrication. The Dalai Lama and the
pro-tibetan supporters who repeated the fabrications are liers..


More bout the author Patrick French.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20040416.bkread041


"French is a talented English writer whose recent book Tibet, Tibet
(Knopf, 2003) attacks not only the Chinese invaders but also the
foreign "Tibetophiles" who practise "Dalaidolatry." French speaks
from experience: A former director of the Free Tibet campaign in
London, he named his son Tenzin in honour of the Dalai Lama.


Like Maraini, he visited Tibet twice. A trip in the 1980s, when he
was a student, led him to work for Tibetan freedom. A longer visit in
the late '90s brought disillusionment. French now believes that Tibet
will never again be independent; that the statistics used by pro-
Tibet
campaigners are often unreliable; and "that the Dalai Lama had lost
the battle, and had probably missed the slender chances offered to
him for a settlement with China." "

The comment above was posted by Bingster at March 20, 2008 12:52 PM unofficial Xinjiang time.

Bingster,

Wang Lixiong also mentioned in his book Sky Burial that Tibetans tend to exaggerate things as he gave a personal example. Nobody can blame he is anti-Tibetan.

Also the historian Tensing Shakya never quote those bloony numbers in his book.

The comment above was posted by sha at March 20, 2008 01:42 PM unofficial Xinjiang time.

Look at zhang's words carefully, he is not asking whether there was the 1m thing, he is asking why China don't plead guilty. This is so unprofessional, zhang.

The comment above was posted by chengduboy at March 20, 2008 03:44 PM unofficial Xinjiang time.

So uh, most ppl here did not mention anything about the silly nature of the quotes from Chinese press? Doesn't those quotes sound to anyone else as hyperboles? I am 100% sure rioters injured han chinese and passerbys, but the way these Chineses news sourcers are describing the brutalities do not ring true. The style and balance is off, sounds too much of classic war time twistings that happen in medias...

The comment above was posted by kv at March 20, 2008 08:25 PM unofficial Xinjiang time.

The old fake Buddist monk called Dalai never condemned the violence by his Tibetan mobs. If you have evidence please just show it. The mobs should be punished, along with the stupid western morons who are fed by the biased news by their CNN. F**K these western reporters!!! They should be driven out of China. Stop whining, fukking western reporters!!! When we say you can't go to Tibet, you just can't. We are the boss here. Your stupid whining get you nowhere. Morons!!@!

The comment above was posted by Huaxia at March 20, 2008 09:19 PM unofficial Xinjiang time.

@kv
"most ppl here did not mention" that because most ppl are not hatemongers, perhaps unlike you

The comment above was posted by chengduboy at March 20, 2008 09:30 PM unofficial Xinjiang time.

The Hui Muslims have good ideas how to deal with the useless Tibetan monks. We don't even need the PLA soliders. Let the Hui Muslims take care of those stupid monks. The Ma armies of Hui muslims did a very good job before 1949.

The comment above was posted by Huaxia at March 20, 2008 09:30 PM unofficial Xinjiang time.

The Tibetan Conundrum
Posted by Grassroot Vizir in Untagged


In these past few days, the Tibetan capital of Lhasa has been rocked by the explosion of riots against the authorities of the People's Republic. It is clear that the Chinese government were taken aback by the spontaneity and breadth of the riots, which are the largest protests to hit the region in over 20 years. With only a few months before Beijing welcomes the world to the Olympics, the government is facing a crisis as to how to face this situation. A bloody response will only spur global condemnation and rejuvenate the flagging Tibetan independence movement. A tolerant response would be seen as a moment of weakness for the protesters and dissolve the authority of the government in the region. Today, I want to discuss the importance of the events occuring in Tibet, and the possible repercussions they may have for China's future as a multi-ethnic state.

Tibet has had a tumultous history, and it remains one of the most politicized and misunderstood regions in the world. According to Tibetan exiles and Hollywood, Tibet was a Shangri La where the population lived peacefully and joyously under the wisdom of Buddhist teachings, until the evil Communists came into town and a wave of dark oppression began. According to the People's Republic of China, Tibet is an inseperable and historic part of China where the majority of the population was chained in serfdom under an oppressive religious oligarchy that routinely killed and murdered for pleasure and profit. The truth? The truth lies in the vast grey area in between.

Tibet and China proper have had relations for over several millenia. During the course of this history, the Tibetan and Han Chinese (the majority ethnic group in China) have both fused and clashed. Tibetan shamans often held high positions in Chinese Imperial Courts, this influence can be evidenced by the number of important Tibetan monasteries around Beijing today. During most of this period, Tibet was an autonomous kingdom that sometimes served as an ally to Chinese dynasties or as a fearsome foe. During the Tang dynasty, Tibetan tribes had ransacked and burned the imperial capital of Chang'An.

In the 17th Century, during the same period that the pilgrims were settling America, Tibet was incorporated into the Qing Empire. Tibet became part of the Chinese empire, however, it also stood apart. In a grand deal between aristocracies, the Tibetan Lamacracy exchanged their obeisance to the Chinese Emperor in return for continued and unperverted domestic governance of Tibet. While the Chinese Empire stationed troops at the border regions of Tibet, and handled Tibet's foreign policy as an integral part of China's sovereignty, the Lamas continued to rule Tibet as god-kings.

This situation continued until the collapse of the Qing in 1911. In the interlude, as the rest of China dissolved into chaos, Tibet's Lamacracy continued to operate autonomously as they always had. The majority of the population were serfs and properties of landed lords, to be treated and traded as cattle and slaves. The Dalai Lama, of which there was a succession, were treated as the ultimate god king. Old Tibet was a dark, superstitious and oppressive place, hardly the beacon of wisdom and kindness often depicted in Hollywood movies. Despite the Buddhist emphasis on immaterialism, the small religious oligarchy in Tibet lived in material luxury and splendor, while the vast majority of serfs toiled in endless misery believing as they had been told by their religious leaders, that they were suffering in this life because of sins they had commited in their past lives.

Come 1951. In the aftermath of the Chinese Civil War and the unification of the Chinese heartland by the Communists, their eyes turned towards that vast hinterland that filled the rest of China's vast boundaries. In 1951, the Communists entered Tibet. However, in a deal reminiscent of that between the Lamacracy and the old Chinese emperors, Mao signed an treaty of understanding with the young Tenzin Gyatso, the current Dalai Lama, which would allow for continued Tibetan autonomy in exchange for Chinese control of the region. However, as socialist revolution, both violent and progressive, swept through the rest of China, it was only a matter of time before the Communists began to target the practices of the Tibetan Lama class. Beginning with establishing hospitals and schools, to the teaching of socialist ideology to the Tibetan serf class, a tide of change began to come to Tibet. The Chinese Communist Party began recruiting from amongst the miserable serf classes of Tibet, and the authority of the Lamacracy began to wither. It was in this context that the rebellion of 1959, and why it was so unsuccessful should be understood. In 1959, with the urging of the religious oligarchs, the Dalai Lama staged a revolt against Chinese rule that was quickly smashed and led to his exile. The revolt was spectacularly unsuccessful precisely because the religious elites lacked the popular support of the Tibetan masses, who were quite indifferent to their continued grasp in power, and many who sympathized with the Communist revolution.

After 1959, a new "Socialist" Tibet was created. The beginning was promising. The scores and masses of serfs, who heretofore, had lived a life of bare subsistence, were dressed in rags and treated as animals, became liberated as human beings. Many even joined the Chinese Communist Party. The Communists built the first public hospital and school system that Tibet had ever seen. The schools taught literacy in the Tibetan language. Literacy in Tibetan before 1959 stood at 5%, today, it hovers at 70% in Tibet. Although quite low by global standards, it was a huge jump in education. The religious institutions of the Tibetan people, though disparaged by the Communist Party, continued to operate and were generally unmolested. The Communists built roads, built modern buildings, and introduced modern technology to the region.

However, this honeymoon did not last long. In 1966, Mao began to kick off the Cultural Revolution and young people across the country formed themselves in units termed the Red Guards to "overthrow the old" in a zealous frenzy. Across China, the madness ensued. Tibet was no exception. Anything that was considered "feudal" or "reactionary" was destroyed, including Buddhist temples, Muslim Mosques, Christian Churches, many cultural institutions were not spared. Neither were the people. In Tibet, Buddhist monks were rounded up and beaten, forced into re-education camps and forced to denounce their faith. Traditional Tibetan culture was suppressed and destroyed. Old Tibet was spotted by countless thousands of monasteries, by the end of the Cultural Revolution, only a few handful remained.

In the era after the Cultural Revolution, Deng Xiaoping's reforms re-instituted freedom of worship, albeit it was state sanctioned and monitored. However, monks were able to return to monasteries and pilgrims were allowed to worship. The last two decades have witnessed astonishing economic growth and social change in China, Tibet has not been unaffected. Streams of Chinese migrants have made their way into the region, and they bring with them a new economy that had not existed before. With the introduction of a new capitalist economy in the new China, economic competition has become fierce. It has been difficult for Tibetans, who were accustomed to a nomadic lifestyle or a barter economy to compete with the influx of Han Chinese migrants, who possess a long tradition of business savvy and also capital. Han Chinese have completely dominated the Tibetan economy, and native Tibetans have become increasingly marginalized. In addition, the stability of welfare programs of the old Socialist system has become increasingly non-existant, thus removing many social safety nets that once existed.

On top of this growing ethnic competition for resources that have caused Tibetans to become marginalized is also the continued suppression of freedom of speech by the Chinese Communist Party. Although China's government itself has changed, and by and large pursues primarily pragmatic policies today, the act of challenging the authority of the government in public spheres can still land one in jail. On top of this, the media and public institutions continue to uphold the patronizing and unrealistic propaganda of the Party which depicts a happy unity of ethnic groups and common devotion to the tenets of Chinese nationalism. This propaganda is out of touch with reality and extremely condescending to the Tibetan people, as well as other ethnic minorities. Although China's economy has rapidly transformed itself into a modern giant, it's politics continue to be hindered by a morass of outdated thoughts and policies. These political and economic realities have created a tinderbox of resentment that has become quite explosive and obvious in the past few days.

China has come to a crossroads. The time for political change has come. Although the riots, which have been violent and ethnically charged, should be suppressed in order to restore law and order, no military solution can solve the core issue of popular resentment on the part of ethnic Tibetans. China is a vast country consisting of many ethnicities, however, the message being broadcasted by its public media continues to be a singular and outdated one. It is time for the Chinese government to realize that allowing freedom of speech is the only way to truly reconciliate ethnic tensions and create true integration of the Tibetan peoples. Today, Tibet's government are staffed by large numbers of ethnic Tibetans, however, these Tibetans are strict adherents to the party line and do not have legitimacy amongst their own people. The Chinese government needs to allow the true outpouring of feelings and resentment into the public sphere, only by creating this outlet will it alleviate some of the anger and resentment that is building. Only by allowing the Tibetans and also, Uighurs, the right to freedom of speech and the right to paint and create their own identity and solutions, can the Chinese government gain legitimacy in the eyes of the Tibetan populace. Only through integrating legitimate and widely respected Tibetan leaders into the decision making process, can the Tibetans feel as if they have a stake in being a part of the People's Republic of China.

It is also time for reconciliation between the Chinese government and the Dalai Lama. The Dalai Lama is getting old, and his years on this world are numbered. Although the Dalai Lama came to power as a young boy, an inheritor of an opulent and corrupt Lamaist system that stood astride on the backs of miserable slavery, his years since his exile have seen him transform himself into a messenger of peace and non-violence. The Dalai Lama no longer calls for Tibetan independence, but a genuine Tibetan autonomy within a greater Chinese republic. The Dalai Lama also continues to command legitimacy within a significant portion of the Tibetan population because of the continued strength of Tibetan Buddhism. The remaining years of the Dalai Lama's life is a grand window of opportunity for the Chinese government to initiate reconciliation and his peaceful return to Tibet. The Dalai Lama's message of peace may not be continued by his successors. It is in the interest of the Chinese government to establish reconciliation during the Dalai Lama's years of existence and to truly create a structure where the voice of ethnic Tibetans and their interests can be heard and protected within a greater China. However, reconciliation and the allowance of new freedoms also come fraught with risk. Ethnic tensions can boil both ways, and if ethnic hatred boils out of control, China's vast western regions may begin to resemble the tattered remains of Yugoslavia with ethnic violence heightening. Therefore, the path towards resolution must be well thought out and well executed.

Every great nation faces a point where it must face its own demons. The 60's and 70's were such a time for the United States. The Civil Rights movement saw the higher ideological ground taken by Martin Luther King Jr., however, it also saw the explosion of anger and violence in the Watts riots and Chicago riots. It was a period that saw the emergence of Black power and the creation of new identity politics. It was a volatile mix between the struggle for justice and the potential for chaos. However, through the framework of the constitution, American society created ground for the public expression of this anger which created an important social outlet. Through the freedom of expression, strong efforts by the federal government to enforce laws banning discrimination and greater economic opportunities for African Americans, much of the more radical anger is starting to give ground to greater integration and identification with American society. The United States has faced its demons and continues to do so. As China rapidly emerges as one of this century's pre-eminent superpowers, the gap between its rapid socio-economic change and its political system is becoming increasingly plain. In Tibet, in Xinjiang, and in a multitude of social issues, it is finally time for China to face its own demons.

WWW.POLZOO.COM

The comment above was posted by polzoo at March 20, 2008 10:18 PM unofficial Xinjiang time.

This post is pretty accurate on most points by still missing small details:

1. The 17 point agreement signed by Beijing and Lhasa were pretty much in the effect and not a reason for the trouble.

2. Problems are from Kham and Amdo which are not under the agreement and the fighting spread into Tibet.

3. Dalai Lama never instigate the 1959. The rumor was started that he would be kidnapped by PLA by two low ranking Tibetan officials. Khampa fighting forces were behind too.

4. CIA was at the work in combination of Taiwan's Nationalist intelligent agency.

The comment above was posted by sha at March 20, 2008 11:35 PM unofficial Xinjiang time.

Transcript: James Miles interview on Tibet

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/03/20/tibet.miles.interview/index.html

again, as with many backpackers/tourists reports, it confirmed the lama-lead rioters were destroying Lhasa and killing innocent people.

The comment above was posted by tom at March 21, 2008 12:55 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.

An imaginary dialog between an American and a Chinese on Tibet:

American: "Free Tibet! You Chinese need to get out of Tibet and leave the Tibetans alone! You need to treat them and their culture with respect!"

Chinese: "You mean like you treated your black slaves and Native American Indians with respect?"

American: "That was a long time ago. We don't do those things anymore. Everyone in America benefits from our American democracy now."

Chinese: "Fine. We are at a different stage of development from you, as you know. You have already reaped the benefits of your extermination campaigns against the Native Americans and your cultural genocide and enslavement of the blacks.

We won't go so far. We will simply overwhelm the Tibetans with our numbers. Then, in a generation or two, when Tibet does not exist any more, our grandchildren will write books about how sorry they are, all the while benefiting from the marginalization of the Tibetan people and culture, just like you do with the Native Americans. Perhaps when the Tibetans make up less than 1% of Tibet's population, we'll let them vote and tell them how lucky they are to have the 'freedom to vote'. We'll even let them make some money by opening up some casinos. What do you think of that?"

American: "Dirty commie! Stop trying to brainwash me with your commie propaganda! Free Tibet! Dalai Lama forever!!!"

The comment above was posted by photog at March 21, 2008 02:49 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.

I am worried about all your bluff. I am losing sleep here in America. Are you going to start a race war in China? Is that good for anyone? Isn't rampant racial hatred is a foreign thing to China (with the exception of a few losers who hate the Japanese)?
I think the media blackout in China is a very good thing; it prevents emotions from running out of control. I hope there has been no idiots in Chinese cities attacking innocent Tibetans.
If you want to make Tibetans Chinese you should treat them as Chiese.

The comment above was posted by bianxiangbianqiao at March 21, 2008 09:18 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.

Its amazing that China supplies much of Pakistan's military and nuclear technology, despite knowing that Pakistan was part of India (like Tibet is part of China) and that Pakistan has unsuccessfully attacked India three times since independence! India should supply the Xianjing Muslims and the Tibetan youth with weapons and return the favor to China, but unfortunately Indian culture is too submissive.

The comment above was posted by Ananda at March 21, 2008 09:45 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.

@bianxiangbianqiao,

I agree with you in some extend. Think about all those loose-mouth politicians incite the hatred in a democratic and free speech world. For example, when US politicians inciting mobs attacking Chinese Americans in US way back. Also CCTV is nice to report how those Hans actually saved by Tibetans from mobs.

But Chinese government made some damage controls by extending its Olympic free press act. Today I watched a calling program with all pro-Government Chinese blast the government's handling (or mishandling) this event. The only Western report left in Tibet actually did a very pro-government report by saying its under-reacting, while those reporters not in the Tibet accused government over-reacting. That probably a good start.

@Ananda,

India did supply the weapons for Tibetan insurgence. That was the reason China almost killed India in 1962 War. After those operations relocated to Nepal, then Maoist insurgency popped up there too.

Do you think India dares to support Tibetan youth? China will train Assam freedom fighters and may make half of India goes independence. Don't throw bricks when you live in a class house.

The comment above was posted by sha at March 21, 2008 10:28 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.

Some online info on His Supreme Holiness, the Dalai Lama. Read it, you might learn something:

http://www.salon.com/news/1998/07/13news.html

http://www.newspiritualbible.com/index2.html

http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html

The comment above was posted by photog at March 21, 2008 04:02 PM unofficial Xinjiang time.

The same kind of things have happened in every revolt that has ever happened. You reference Ghandi, but there were many protests which ended in violence in the Indian struggle for violence. I am currently reading a book on the Hungarian uprising of 1956 and pretty much the same things happened there. Nor was the American revolution without violence. I do not support the activities of the protestors, but I do support their right to protest - the Chinese have brought this situation on themselves. As for the Xinhua and China Daily reports, these news sources have not been above out-right lieing (rather than simple slanted reporting) in the past, I do not believe anything they say.

The comment above was posted by FOARP at March 21, 2008 05:56 PM unofficial Xinjiang time.

Sha,
The Han Chinese chest-thumping and rabid screaming against Tibetans worries me more than the violence in Lhasa. This is exactly what the lamas want, to stir up a race war in Tibet, and then spill it to the surrounding areas, then to all over China. Hearing the rabid screams of using force against Tibetans,and encouraging Hui violence against Tibetans, instead of separating them from the small bunch of criminals, makes the lamas behind this mayhem very happy. They want to bring the Tibet situation to the low level of blatant racial hatred. They started it by attaching innocent Han and Hui based on their races, do you want to perpetuate it by attacking Tibetans? 这个坛子里的言论和局势真是亲者痛仇者快呀。I cannot understand why people with reasonable amount of education so easily play into the hands of their enemies. They are like a bunch of silly puppies climbing up the ladder set up by the lamas; wait until the lamas take away the ladder and see where you land. They have laid down very nice spikes on the ground.
I guess you guys have been places and seen stuff like me. You should have figured out one simple truth that is true everywhere in this big wide world - all haters are losers. Hating and making a big fuss expressing it is cheap and easy. Moreover, directing hatred toward those in a weaker position is very inelegant and of very dubious taste, at least in my humble opinion.
What worries even more and leaving me twisting my little patriotic brain out without understanding is that in America, those who advertise their racial hatred are the trashy low lifes living in trailor parks, riding on motorbikes and covered with prison tatoos all over. I can’t imagine they can speak those long and grammatically perfect sentences even in the native tongue, let a lone a foreign language. The Chinese educated are playing their old boring trick? I understand I am not in a position to scold anyone. I am not a refined person and suffer from inferiority complex from my hutong upbringing; took years to get rid of my hutong accent). But even for me, this has been absolutely a let down.

The comment above was posted by bianxiangbianqiao at March 21, 2008 08:55 PM unofficial Xinjiang time.

@bianxiangbianqiao,

That is one reason CCTV quickly aired the programs about Hans being saved by real peace-loving Tibetans, about the Tibetan girl die with her Han friends, about Tibetan doctor being beat badly trying tendering the victims on the street. Those are efforts to prevent a wider racial hatred.

Also China doesn't believe Dalai Lama is behind this. He probably wants a peaceful demonstration to get all attention before Olympics, but himself is very clear on violence. It is more like Tibet Youth Congress who advocate terror acts and violence over the decades.

But I do think the confrontation in Sichuan can go ugly with Khampa faces off Sichuanese. Those two are not too famous for cool head. Also Hui Muslim. When religions get in, things can be much worse.

The comment above was posted by sha at March 22, 2008 12:14 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.

@bianxiangbianqiao

My emotions got better of me when I spoke of arming Huis. I understand what you are saying.

What I really angry about is that someone in Tibetan government (maybe even Central government in Beijing) made a very cynical and calculated (even cold-blooded, by my standards) decision to sacrifice most livelihood of Han and Hui living in Lhasa city to appear to be "restraint" so not as to jeopardize the Olmypics. They basically stood by to let the riot run its course rather than protecting the citizens as their duty.

Jame Miles of Economist magazine, the only accredited Western Journalist in Lhasa during the riot, gave an interview on CNN that corroborates my read of the events. He seem to have reach the same conclusion about why authorities stood by while Lhasa burned in first couple of days.

@sha

Of course, Chinese authority is spinning the event. I believe truth need to come out, regardless how ugly it is.

You seem to applaud many authoritarian methods and nature of our government. As much as I think the present Chinese government is doing a heck of a job, a truly open and democratic society could handle ugly situation like this. I lived through the LA riot, I would know.

Hopefully the democratic transition will happen sooner and smoothly. TAR (Tibetan Autonomous Region) government would have been hold accountable for their actions in a democracy.

The comment above was posted by Cao Meng De at March 22, 2008 02:12 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.

Cao Meng De,

I don't know if that is calculated in Government side or they just underestimate the situation.

Even back in 1989, Central Government orders are no matter what, no shot. Consider that time, the police officers are not equipped well for riot control, a gun or rifle on you hands without ability to use it, is worse than a simple stick. So many of cops got hurt, and someone finally had enough of it, and started shooting. And they are ethnic Tibetans.

This time, probably they are more in a defensive position to hold the line. Just look the horsemen attack in Gansu, the security force just stay back to hold the position.

There are a lot of things I don't like in Chinese current governmental structure, but changes need to be orderly and moderately. The next 10-15 years is very important for China makes or breaks. Caution is good. If you think Beijing is not too good on this, TAR government sure is much worse at the management.

The comment above was posted by sha at March 22, 2008 03:15 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.

@Sha

I don't know what you are arguing about. My whole point is that TAR government's handling of this affair is extremely disgraceful.

It's fine to hole up in the government building in case of Gansu horsemen attack. It seem to be just an attack on government installation.

It totally unacceptable to stand by while innocent citizens are being attacked. Law and order is what government suppose to provide to its citizen, neither was offered to Han and Hui residents of Lhasa for two entire days in Lhasa.

I can understand Tibetan anger and while I don't wish to see it happen, I think they are in some way justified in venting their anger toward government apparatus. But I feel nothing but total disgust at the attack on innocent civilians on basis of their race.

More disgusting is that fact the police and military simply didn't intervene in the worst days of racial violence.

The comment above was posted by Cao Meng De at March 22, 2008 03:47 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.

cao meng de
要得要得。斗争尖锐而复杂,敌人阴险狡猾。同志们要提高警惕,擦亮眼睛,千万别上当受骗呀。

The comment above was posted by bianxiangbianqiao at March 22, 2008 04:09 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.

@bianxiangbianqiao

Hahaha, you are right. Like Chenduboy said I almost fell for 连船计 yet again.

The comment above was posted by Cao Meng De at March 22, 2008 04:29 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.

There's definitely an Indian connection to the Lhasa riot.


Here the rioter's heavy Indian accent @ 1:58 mark of tourist video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1dxZlS9Axo

The comment above was posted by Bingster at March 22, 2008 06:17 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.

sha,

I don't know if the Indian army supplied any weapons to the Tibetans in the 1960s, but if they did, the weapons must have been very basic since the Indian army still imports top end stuff from Russia and others as of 2008! Moreover, in the 1960s, India was just recently independent and could not even scare Pakistan, since Pakistan invaded India three times and is only now finally scared to do it again. The Indian army was essentially nonexistent in 1948 at the time of independence.

Anyway, if India did something wrong to the Chinese in the 1960s, it does not make it right for the Chinese to reciprocate in this present day and age. The Chinese have spread nuclear weapons technology to Pakistan (and possibly North Korea), and mark my words, whatever weaponry you provide Pakistan, will end up in Xianjing and the Muslim terrorists will use it on you guys once they have used it on the Indians in Kashmir. Look at what is happening in Pakistan at the moment -- all because the Pakistanis supported the Taliban against the Soviets, Al Quaeda against the West, and Kashmiri insurgents against India. When you wreak havoc onto others, it will come and bite you twice as hard.

Anyway, that Indian accent the previous poster mentioned in the video, which I didn't watch, could be Nepali too. I didn't think Tibetans could cross into China easily from Nepal or India (I though it only went the other way).

FYI -- The Indian government is not supporting Tibetan independence, and has consistently said that Taiwan and Tibet are a part of China. They are disputing China's claims over Arunachal Pradesh, but thats a whole other story.

Good luck to the Han and good luck to the Tibetans. Hopefully someone finds a livable planet in space and humans can get out of here and leave me in peace with my animal friends!

The comment above was posted by Ananda at March 22, 2008 06:38 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.

@Bingster

There are quite large number of Tibetan who go to India (mostly illegally crossing the border) for education either reglious or secular, but return to Tibet to live and work. The Indian accent is not proof that he is an agent from Dharamsala, just meant he spend sometime overseas. Given the magnitude and scale of Tibetan protest, though, I am fairly certain this was planned before hand by elements of so-called Tibetan government in exile.

Ananda,

Let's face the facts. PRC's support of Pakistan, a sore issue for New Delhi, only started after the Sin0-Indian border conflict of 1962.

The border issue is the fundamental roadblock between a cooperative relationship between us. The two area in contention, Askai Chin and Arunachal Pradesh could've been solved back in the 50s.

Zhou En Lai was quite prepared to demarcate the Line of Actual Control (LAC) as the international border. Which would mean China trades its claim on Arunachal Pradesh for Indian claim of Askai Chin.

For China, Askai Chin is of paramount strategic importance, not only is it on east side of Himalayas, it's the only place that connects Xinjiang to Tibet. Arunachal Pradesh, on the other hand, while culturally linked to Tibet is on the southern side of Himalayas, therefore strategically more important to India than China (that's why British wanted to demarcate McMahon Line in the first place). However Indian side refused to compromise and pursued the "Forward policy" instead. The rest is history.

I believe the most realistic stratedge is still make the current line of control the offical internationl border between two countries.

As for Pakistan, I don't know why you guys are so worried. Pakistan is self-destructing at this point. When I was in American highschool, I had done a country study on Pakistan. It was quite depressing that I ended up switch to Thailand. And this was many years ago!

Even though, the whole national identity of Pakistan is defined by its opposition to India, they have realize that they HAVE TO come to an accomodation with India if their nation is to have any chance of long term survival. Their military budget as percentage of their GDP is just bleeding them dry.

Pakistan is in a worse posistion in its struggle with India than Taiwan vs China. Taiwan has developed economy, much more support from US and they spend very little militarily to defend against China (they know it's a lost cause and their only security rest on US 7th fleet). That's why Pakistan is faring badly while India is booming.

btw, I do not believe our leaders have thought thru the long term consequence of giving Pakistan and North Korea nuclear assistance.

Pakistan is not the ideal partner for us. They couldn't even protect Chinese engineers working in their country. But hey, we got to work with the cards we are dealing with.

If Sino-Indian relationship is cordial, there will be much less rationale for Chinese tilt toward Pakistan, but I feel we have a long way to go before the two nation could develop that knd of trust. According to what I heard from the Indian defense circles (not blogger, actually defense peeps), the trust is not there right now.

The comment above was posted by Cao Meng De at March 22, 2008 11:55 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.

@Ananda

I mean Pakistan establisment have to realize that they must compromise with India. Given the current political climate, I don't see any Pakistan politician have the gut to make peace.

The comment above was posted by Cao Meng De at March 22, 2008 11:59 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.

Your people are bloody eager beavers. I love all of your guys. Go on. Let the fun roll.

The comment above was posted by Richard at March 22, 2008 02:20 PM unofficial Xinjiang time.

"With the introduction of a new capitalist economy in the new China, economic competition has become fierce. It has been difficult for Tibetans, who were accustomed to a nomadic lifestyle or a barter economy to compete with the influx of Han Chinese migrants, who possess a long tradition of business savvy and also capital. Han Chinese have completely dominated the Tibetan economy, and native Tibetans have become increasingly marginalized. "

So according to your theory, the Americans, the Europeans and the Japanese, who possess not only long tradition of business savvy and also tremendously huge huge capital, who came to China running big businesses like Walmart, Macdonard, KFC, OEM Panasonic,
must be marginalizing han Chinese?
must be enslaving han Chinese?
However, you white people never come across such a concept?

The comment above was posted by QUESTION TO POLZOO at March 23, 2008 03:40 PM unofficial Xinjiang time.

I really feel sorry for everyone who has been hurt in the recent turmoil - including Han and Hui. However, it is clear to me that the han and Hui should only be in Tibet if they are invited in by Tibetans. Tibet should belong to Tibetans - just like China belongs to Chinese.

I hear Chinese giving all kinds of excuses for continuing to control Tibet but none of the excuses hold any weight when compared to the basic fact that China invaded Tibet, continues to control Tibet and tries to interfere in all aspects of Tibetans lives. Tibetans should be free and the Chinese should leave them alone, get out of their country, and stop their absurd vilification of Nobel Peace Prize-winning Dalai Lama.

The rest of the world is never going to accept China's occupation of Tibet no matter how much Beijing lies to its people about the true situation or censors the news.

The comment above was posted by Jay at March 23, 2008 07:38 PM unofficial Xinjiang time.

Guys, that Indian accent bit is complete nonsense. That is a totally standard Tibetan accent. The clearest indication of his Tibetaness is his inability to say the "v" in government. His idiom is also very basic, speaking English is clearly a very occaisional thing for this man.

The comment above was posted by DollyClick at March 27, 2008 08:11 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.

I really like this post, it answered several questions I've been having in my mind since 3.14..xx

The comment above was posted by Once at March 27, 2008 09:44 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.

The reason why Tibetans didnt butchered Chinese outside of core Tibet area is simple: the Tibetans r minorities outside from Lhasa. In surrounding areas the han Chinese r the dominating majority. Even the Tibetans know u dont piss off ppl in a place where u r a minority.
To those who claim the Chinese r to blaim for the killings of innocent han civilians:
When Japan invaded China, it brought a lot japanese civilians with them. Japan intended to do the same thing China is trying in Tibet: colonization through mass immigration. But when Japan was defeated, the Chinese let the Japanese go in peace. The Chinese didnt use the ugly crimes of the japanese army as an excuse to butcher the innocent japanese civilians. Fighting against a repressive regime does not justify the killing of innocents.
IF westerners think chinese civilians deserve to get killed as kind of paycheck for their governments wrongdoings, well.... Following this kind of logic, i may also say the soldiers in Iraq also deserve what they get. The US invaded Iraq illegally, so ur soldiers deserve to get killed to. And if i think further, maybe the US deserves 9.11 too...

The comment above was posted by Reality is propaganda at March 29, 2008 08:49 PM unofficial Xinjiang time.

The comment above was posted by hyhiu at December 27, 2009 05:21 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.

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The comment above was posted by منتديات at January 7, 2010 09:01 PM unofficial Xinjiang time.

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The comment above was posted by MBT Schuhe at April 7, 2010 01:56 PM unofficial Xinjiang time.

Tubdain, a local resident, said he saw a girl in red-clothing who appeared to be an ethnic Han chased and clubbed by six people on the Dosenge Road in the downtown area. "The mobs stoned her head and batted her knees with wooden clubs," said the 50-something Tubdain.

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The comment above was posted by Miami at April 9, 2010 12:25 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.


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The comment above was posted by joo at April 12, 2010 12:31 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.

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The comment above was posted by youtube at April 12, 2010 10:28 PM unofficial Xinjiang time.

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The comment above was posted by sdfsd at April 16, 2010 03:40 PM unofficial Xinjiang time.

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