Your post is very different from what you told me in our private discussion yesterday, where you told me you found yourself in agreement with nh "200% of the time." Please explain.

I have no love for Nanheyangrouchuan, but I find what China Law Blog says very curious.

Did "nh" turn the world upside down?

@ganymede: CLB's comment is sort of an inside joke, but if you want to understand go read the comments on Peking Duck.

@Tiako: Yes, NH has turned the Chinese blogosphere upside down... and that red color is him spreading towards other parts of Asia!

The original map can be found here.

Some love drinkin'
and some hashin'
But everybody loooooooooooves

CHINA BASHIN'!

Thank you, ladies and germs of the China blogosphere!

But seriously, yes, I am spreading through the China blogosphere as part of my grand strategy and if any of you make money from selling ad space you owe me a chunk thanks to the hits I bring.

That graphic is much appreciated Mike, it's the first laugh I've had all day ;-)))))

LOL, don't worry about him. at least he's much better than some of the comments (as little as they can be) some goes "yeah!" and i have to go "yeah what", he brings in hated comment, but definitely a revisit to your site, neh?

the worst kind of comment i receive was one related to nanjing massacre, ask me go support their beliefs in some other site. WTH. i am not a activist!

In one comment NH claims himself to be Pakistani. If this is real, then he should be forgiven for whatever derogatory he said about China, because to the Chinese people, ALL Pakistanis are friends. If he is American or British or German, he will not be forgiven.

"because to the Chinese people, ALL Pakistanis are friends"

As long as the Pakistanis let Greater Han militarily occupy their country, plunder their resources and use them as a launch pad to contain India.

For me, NH's best contribution is for Independance of "Turkmenistan". LOL.

I almost constantly disagree with the views and analysis of NH but I think he/she is knowledgeable about the Middle Kingdom.

He is just a clown with some agenda, no more, no less. If he is there for attention, he definitely succeeded in it; If he is trying to make people buy his lies by repeating them 1000 times, he is a total failure.

Sha and office dweller;

The Olympics will be a great spectacle for everyone to see what a junkyard china is.

Why do people always think having an agenda is a bad thing? Gandhi, for example, had an agenda of freeing India by peaceful means. And not to say that NH is like Gandhi, but his agenda is to spread his viewpoint on the Chinese governmental policy in an open forum. And it's a pretty open agenda.

It sounds a bit less bad like that, doesn't it?

Gandhi, Hitler, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., Mao, and Pol Pot all had agendas. It sounds a bit worse like that, doesn't it?

(I'm just messing with you, Tiako.)

Actually "stinky", the Olympics is the good chance for people to know that what you and the media have been painting for years as "bad bad China" is nothing but lies. People will see China as China, not a perfect country, but which can't be simplified just by a stupid phrase "bad bad China" either. The truth can't be hidden forever, hehe, too bad for you. Also you can't poison everybody so utterly on the earth by hatred as the way you are poisoned. Your life is ruined by hatred and bias. People who are not as simplistic and extreme won't have their lives ruined by ignorance and hate. You can't convert all the people, actually the way you preach and what you preach will convert very few people. I stand by what I said, you are nothing but a sour loser. You are a mere dirt for the Chinese people, even though you think you are an all-mighty god. Maybe as a clown you have some entertainment value, just as the clown Michael Saveage has, or another clown called Peter Navarro. But at least they have their talk show, and the other wrote a book. You on the other hand is just a complete loser without a life.

office dweller,
your meager opinions do nothing to distract anyone from the murderous and corrupt nature of the CCP or village bosses, the unbreathable air, undrinkable water, utterly chaotic crowds, unchecked discharged of bodily fluids all over the public domain (puking on a crowded subway is always a nice surprise) or blaming the Japanese and West for all of the above problems while engaging in some deep nose picking.

And you don't look cool when you smoke, especially when you are holding a man purse.

@Michael - Yeah, I know, but you do show my point brilliantly. Agendas are neither good nor bad, which is why I hate it when people accuse others of having an "agenda".

Now I'm going to step away from the combatants very quickly.

佛说，“恨海无边，回头是岸”. Think about it. I am saying this to you only because you are a fellow human being. You are consumed by hatred. You are not hurting the people you hate but you are hurting yourself and ruining your own life and turning yourself a unhuman beast. You are a mere dirt to China and Chinese people. By taking on China you are destroying yourself. The final winner will be the one who doesn't allow himself affected by malicious verbal attacks but focus on his work at hand. This is what China is doing today. Your barking will be ignored by the majority of Chinese since they are too busying living their lives. After all most people do have a life, unlike you.

OD,

Save your energy with NH. He will live with his like minded people to watch how China becoming center of the world.

Here is a very interesting read on how other people--non-Westerners, non-Chinese, to view China and USA.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/20/AR2007102000530_pf.html

Yeah, don't waste your energy here when you could be commenting about the sugar beets above! Yes, that's right... sugar beets. Now you're hooked, eh?

"The final winner will be the one who doesn't allow himself affected by malicious verbal attacks but focus on his work at hand. This is what China is doing today."

haaahahahhahhhhaaaa! Then explain the GFW. China is so sensitive the superior viewpoint of the west that the CCP baby killers have to resort to totalitarianism to limit criticism. But the joke is on them, just look at typical chain smoking, greasy, bad comb-over Chinese bosses!

China is the center of the world only in a dirty and troublesome way. Everyone knows what a threat is so they pay attention. Everyone has to deal with Chinese corruption and pollution as well, that is the only "center" that bad, filthy, reckless China occupies.

I hate sugar beets, but sweet potatoes with butter and cinammon rules!

@NH:

Any chance that I can get you to reveal some details about yourself? It might help people relate to you and feel less like like you're a secretive dark lord out to destroy China.

Where do you live? Are you a man or a woman? Are you Chinese? Western? How old are you? What's your experience with China? Anything would be appreciated.

I cant put IRKUTSK and Yangrouchuan together.
why irkutsk? michael, your pic is kinda weired

Like I said above, the original map can be found at:

http://strangemaps.wordpress.com/2007/04/23/10x-asia-from-irkutsk/

I didn't choose Irkutsk, I just chose not to change it from the original image. But yes, you're right... I am kind of weird.

Normally, most of China-basher is more CCP-basher, but NH is a true China-basher that will start to bash from day one of Chinese civilization.

Life must be very misrable for China-bashers. LOL.

@Michael;

I'm not a dark lord, more of a half-elf paladin.

@ Sha; Life is not miserable, it is wonderful, especially in clean, modern, orderly western world. Not so in China/Mordor/Geidi Prime.

Here is my Shanghaiist interview, that should shed some light on me.

From: Kenneth@Shanghaiist
To: xinjiang15@netscape.net
Cc: Dan Washburn
Sent: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 2:23 am
Subject: And finally: your questions!

Hey nanheyangrouchuan,

This is Kenneth from Shanghaiist saying hi again. Sorry it took us a while to put together those questions, but here they are, finally!
There are 24 questions in all (with many subparts), so I know this may take you a while to get back to me, but we do hope you take the time/effort to answer every question. And if there's any question you don't feel like answering, then do let us know why.
Have a great weekend!
Cheers,
Kenneth
...................................................
1. What is your age, nationality, ethnicity, profession, current location? You're a guy right?

US citizen, environmental engineering/water quality, rocky mountain region. The rest kinda takes away the "mysterious allure" of my identity.

2. What is your educational background? What degrees have you earned? What did you study?

Masters, PhD may be in the works too.

3. Is it part of your job to post comments on China-related blogs? Do you get paid to be a troll? If it is not part of your job, how do you find the time? Walk us through a typical day.

Hehe, "troll". Typically a troll would throw out completely baseless jabs at the air, the level of emotion I generate in the blogosphere clearly demonstrates that I am no troll. Elvin Ranger maybe, but no troll.

I do receive compensation and knowledge support for my activities from a larger group including US and foreign intellectuals. A typical day involves getting up and working either at home or if harassed enough, in an office.

I do travel to China from time to time. The wonders of VPN technology.

4. Are you in a relationship? If so, what does you significant other think about the time you spend online.

I spend less time online than you might think, I use a computer for work, so combining work and other online activities is a very efficient use of my time. I would say my internet usage is probably much less than your typical coffee shop crowd on average.

5. Why aren't you using your real name instead?

You are in the press and you don't recognize the power and mystique of anonymity? And why would I want people to know my real name. This isn't about me, its about the messages I convey.

6. When, if ever, was the last time you were in China?

Three months ago.

7. Why do you hate China so much? When did you first start hating China? Do you differentiate between the Chinese government and the people?

"Hating" China by pointing out its flaws and consistently bad behavior vs "loving" China and turning a blind eye? Did this question come from your Chinese staff, blind panda-lickers or some guys from the foreign chambers of commerce down the street from your office?

My position (and the growing position of others) on China is more correctly seen as the inversely proportionate response to roughly 15-20 years of corporate propaganda regarding the wonders of China's vast and increasingly educated labor pool.

At the same time companies in the west muscled their gov'ts to let them give away sensitive technology, jobs and expertise to a gov't with 5000 continuous years of suppression, conquest and subjugation, these companies became the sock puppets of the current dynasty and also leverage their home gov'ts to tow the line. And this didn't start with Taiwan, it started with treaties regarding southern Mongolia (which China did fight and lose a war with Russia over) and Tibet (which Kissinger gave away as a precondition to Nixon's visit to China).

I get along great with a lot of Chinese people (at least on the surface in most cases) at the street level. Though the old people
seem more amiable than the youngsters, whom I've started to ignore because they seem to be looking for a verbal confrontation over this or that. The Chinese gov't is evil and has been for a long time mostly due to its self-perceived mandated, heavenly racial superiority. Yes, many other countries including the US were guilty of this during their history, but for the most part we've all moved on, the Chinese gov't hasn't and has stepped up the educational brainwashing of its youth
regarding what the world, particularly the West and Japan, owe China. This is very, very dangerous especially because China has a very developed non-conventional military arsenal.

And yet businesses and their lobbyists convince everyone to ignore this.

The Chinese people have been as much victims of MNCs' "pro-China" policies. To raise up the living conditions of 300 million, 1 billion had to be pushed down and now everyone gets to live in a toxic hell that has long surpassed industrial age Europe or the US in variety and concentration.

What are some of the beliefs and attitudes of Chinese with which you take issue?
A. That China is somehow more special than other countries and cultures.
B. China invented this and that. The neolithic man dug out of a glacier in Italy (nicknamed Otzi) has markings on his body that coincide with meridian lines and acupuncture needle place marks used in TCM and he died 5000 years ago.

8. What China blog do you read every day? every week? How do you keep track of them? rss? If so, what reader do you use.

What? And no payment? China Law Blog and Shanghaiist are two, Sinocidal (infrequently), China business blogs, Chris D-E's stuff. (Editor's note: NH also reads The Opposite End of China.)

9. Do you you actually enjoy any of the blogs you posts on? or are they just tools?

Both.

10. If china was in a steel cage wrestling match with satan, who would you root for?

China. Ok, what if China was wrestling paris hilton? Paris.

11. Be honest: do you use ANY products made in china?

I make it a point not to if at all possible, I know it could trickle down to hurt Chinese laborers, but their lives are pretty sucky anyways, at least at the level of socks, shoes, etc. The last two pairs of running shoes I bought were made in China and have made it through 3 months of half-marathon training, but then the lace holes tear. Almost like your new car suddenly falling apart at 60,000 miles. But in the end, it is the PLA and CCP who benefit the most when anyone anywhere in the world buys a "made in China" product as they get to collect taxes, bribes and own 10% or more of every private Chinese company.

12. If we met you in person, do you think we’d like you?

I think you'd be prejudiced against me from the outset. I've met some China bloggers at events in my last trip to China but kept my true nature under the surface (playing the Bruce Wayne role here).

13. Do you think you are racist?

Because I'm American? Because I say things that aren't popular or tow the line to maintain and even keel? When I first came to China I was completely open minded, when I left I was "altered" (physically altered too, just can't shake this lingering intestinal bug). I answer the question this way: the condition of China is because its gov't has
tried to keep its people isolated for so long (since the Tang) in the name of "purity" and "superiority". Social evolution is ugly but left to its own devices does indeed sort itself out. China has not had that chance up to now, and of course Beijing is throwing the clamps back down not just regarding the internet but TV, radio, etc. So a lot of the bad behavior can probably be chalked up to thousands of years of stagnation, including public defecation.

14. Do you have other more normal interests/hobbies? If so, what are they?

Outdoors stuff, getting back into playing the sax after a long hiatus('cause the ladies love good sax), just read "Chekov, the Comic Stories".

15. What is your opinion of Kadeer and the community in exile?

More shame on the world for ignoring them in the name of business, shame on Beijing for wasting valuable resources and lives for 400 years on a region that doesn't want to be harmonized. I support full military and then economic support for E. Turkestan. Buying "made in China" also supports Beijing's continued efforts in that country, Tibet and S. Mongolia.

16. Do you honestly believe that there is any hope for the independence movement? Historically, has there ever been any semblance of a true nation state in Xinjiang (or the area of Xinjiang that is aka East Turkestan)?

I think if you looked at tribal "areas of influence" you would see this. The Muslim world has given up fighting China for a long time. The Tang were obliterated at Talas River and Muslim invaders were defeated and absorbed.

17. Do you think that other Turkic peoples who lived under the USSR have it better than do Uighurs today?

Somebody's looking to set me up for a historical blunder, hehe. I felt a tremor in the force. From the hip, I'd say probably not, but the Russians also didn't believe in "watering down" the ethnic populations under them. Now look at the ethnic populations of other minorities in China. Many of these groups used to be large and powerful nation-states, now they are a collection of villages making trinkets.

18. What is the purpose of your internet campaign to malign China? And do you honestly believe that you are having any effect on public opinion?

If I was having no effect we wouldn't be having this interview and there are things going on behind the scenes that you won't be made aware off. I do participate in policy discussions at the think tank level and there is a reason I included Shanghaiist's email address in my list of informative broadcasts.

19. Why did you start your blog now, at this late phase in your China-bashing career?

More of an experiment. My other efforts have proved highly effective so I don't feel I really "need" the blog, but gaging a few responses across a couple of blogs, my blog does get attention.

20. Who are some journalists who you believe portray China accurately?
Andy Xie (economics), the BBC, that guy from the Washington Post (politcs, PLA)...and I know one of this guy's sources on the PLA too, LA Times, SCMP (though CCP influence is now obvious), Taipei Times.

21. Do you ever consider that you could be stoking the fire of xenophobia and racism and thus be counter-productive to your said-cause?

22. What do you believe is China’s future place in the world?

Unless there is a real multi-party system and gets on board with real, transparent governance, China's future place in the world is to cause one really big nasty war in Asia (including lobbing missiles at the US) before entering the history books.

23. What are your five favorite things (sincere, not cynical or sarcastic) about China?

Traditional characters, some of the food (but Shanghai food sucks, I can just boil everything then drown it in maple syrup at home), conversations with older people, I saw a dragon kiln in operation on the train from Shanghai to Guilin and some sort of real ancient funeral procession taking place in the countryside. Bootleg DVDs/CDs and good quality bootleg clothes (not joking, considering the poor truck drivers or day laborers who fatten their wallets by surpassing The Man at corporate HQ), giving locals a good show while I act "foreign".

24. And FINALLY: How long do you think you can keep this up? What is your end game?

Questions 21, 22, 24, the Bilderberg group, the CCP and my now infamous "Blueprint for Permanently Deconstructing China" are all connected and that is all I have to say about that.

I saw a great South Park episode a while ago, where the villain, Davide Blaine, brought the Lincoln Memorial to life, and it was up to the world's major religious figures to stop the beast:

"Moses, how do you take care of a giant, stone Abraham Lincoln?"
"Uh...um... a giant, stone John Wilkes Booth?"

Looks like the China-related blogosphere needs... a beiheyangrouchuan!

Would someone please tell us what Nanheyangrouchuan means? Don't forget that there are a few of us that don't speak Chinese.

I agree with most of what he says although I wonder if he's a bit too impressed with himself?

@Jay:

馕 (nang) = Uyghur naan bread
和 (hé) = and
羊 (yáng) = sheep
肉 (ròu) = meat
串 (chuàn) = kebab
儿 (er) = no meaning, adds an "r" sound often indicating a Beijing accent.

So, the full meaning of Nanheyangrouchuanr is "naan bread and a mutton kebab", which is to Uyghurs in Xinjiang what a hot dog or hamburger is to an American. Some confusion arises in translating Nanheyangrouchuanr because the pinyin "nan" should really be "nang". "Naan" would have also been OK.

But, my feeling is that he gets a pass because the character 馕 is only a transliteration of a Uyghur word. It's a fairly obscure character to expect someone to know.

Of course, now that you understand the meaning of Nanheyangrouchuanr, the picture up above might make a little more sense to you. Well, at least the bottom part.

Oh, and another thing...

Just for the enlightenment of all of you China expats, a little known fact is that absolutely no one in Xinjiang ever uses the term yangrouchuanr (羊肉串儿) to order or describe a mutton kebab.

The noun almost always used is kaorou (烤肉), literally meaning "roast meat", and taking the simple ge (个) as a measure word. You can also use the Uyghur word kevap.

Here's some more trivia for all of you, "nang" is equivalent to Indian "naan" bread, both are unleavened and often baked with garlic, butter, various seeds, etc.

Way back when I formulated this identity, one website didn't have enough space for "naan" so I had to shorten it to "nan" which leads some to believe that my name is "southern river lamb kebab".

Also, "烤肉" does appear in Suzhou and Shanghai at famous name xinjiang restaurants.

"
"because to the Chinese people, ALL Pakistanis are friends"

As long as the Pakistanis let Greater Han militarily occupy their country, plunder their resources and use them as a launch pad to contain India.
"

No. As long as Afghan people suffer from US invasion. "contain India"? India is not so great, just like your mom, which we are not interested in.

Unlike Iraq, what we've done in Afghanistan to bury the Taliban, liberate women and create another bulwark against Bad China expansion is 100% good.

India is better than China.

Hei, Michael! I have a suggestion . why don`t you try to post some informations about the European missionaries (who had stayed in kashgar and yarkend ,etc,,, 100 years ago)

I should write about more missionaries, but you can check out this post on Mildred Cable from 2006. She was an American missionary roaming throughout northwest China in the 1920s and 1930s. I also posted a few photos from her book, "Gobi Desert".

I think being purposely caustic is not very necessary, since criticizing China in a methodical, well-thought-out manner is not difficult. Perhaps our chuan-loving friend would come armed with something more heady than complaints about spitting and vague imperialism if he spent some time in Xinjiang himself.

If you speak Chinese around here, or even better Uighur, it is not hard to find someone who will relate to you all the personal ills they have suffered at the hands of the CCP. It's hardly just minorities either, but quite a few Han, and more than not old supporters of the CCP. There was a riot here in Urumqi a few weeks ago, several hundred old women trying to collect their last few years' wages that the XUAR government had defaulted on. They were very excited to find a foreigner who who could speak Chinese and understand their problems, and they sure as hell not the only ones in town.

Here comes the perfect match for this arse hole~Mainlander:an extreme West (especially US hater)/China lover & a nan...(whatever shit) hunter. I am going to haunt this arse hole from heaven to hell.

Do enjoy my company, nang...(whatever shit)!

WOW. I have been entranced for over an hour. Never been to China, not claiming to be an authority but have just now really enjoyed Opposite end Of China AND Naangroucho-thingy. I haven't the time to write or read as much as you all but it's all pretty impressive weighty stuff. Keep at it you China bashers and China lovers. May the best naan win! Goodbye

Agree w/ Jon above. Like your site, Michael, and the fact that there's a pretty informed dialogue going on here. OT: Ref a previous post here, my idea for a bumper sticker for missionaries:

MISSIONARIES - Spreading Ignorance World Wide

'Nuff said

I'd like to take the time to ask for a moment of silence for the death of one blog that was my competition in telling the truth about China and many expats.

Sinocidal, rest in peace.

Badirty China finally overtook them, but not me!

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