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June 10, 2007
Rot in Albania or Die in China?
There's a fairly lengthly article in today's New York Times about the plight of five Uyghurs who were allowed to leave Guantanamo for Albania last year. Turns out that life in Albania ain't all peaches and cream:
They have now lived for more than a year in a squalid government refugee center on the grubby outskirts of Tirana, guarded by armed policemen.
The men have been told that they will need to get work to move out of the center, they said, but that they must learn the Albanian language to get work permits. For now, they subsist on free meals heavy with macaroni and rice, and monthly stipends of about $67, which they spend mostly on brief telephone calls to their families. But some of the men have already lost hope of ever seeing their wives and children again.
“We suffered very much at Guantánamo, but we continue to suffer here,” Mr. Basit said. “The other prisoners had their countries, but we are like orphans: we have no place to go.”
There's no obvious solution to their problem, as a return to China would most likely result in, errr, discomfort of an extreme nature. I think they should have been allowed to live in the US, but Homeland Security flat out refused. Perhaps what's needed is some sort of new Australia, where we can send these people until there's enough of them to start their own government.
The article gives more details about life at Gitmo for these unlucky five:
They described their imprisonment as bewildering and traumatic, punctuated by moments of the absurd. After they were cleared for release, they were able to watch cartoons and Harry Potter movies, until Mr. Mamet smashed the television because of what he said was the guards’ refusal to take him to a doctor. The set was replaced with one made in China, the men said dismissively; it broke after a week.
Several of the Uighurs said their most traumatic experience at Guantánamo was their interrogation by a team of Chinese security officials in September 2002. The Chinese “had all of our files from the Americans,” Mr. Qassim said, threatened them repeatedly and insisted that the prisoners return with them to China. They refused.
Woe is them, eh? Of course, one could argue that they shouldn't have been hanging around with Taliban-types playing with AK-47s, but that's all academic now. You can read the full article below.
Chinese Leave Guantánamo for Albanian Limbo
The New York Times
By TIM GOLDEN
Published: June 10, 2007
TIRANA, Albania — Ahktar Qassim Basit says he is not angry about the four years he spent as an American prisoner at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, before his captors mumbled a brief apology and flew him to this drab Balkan capital to begin a new life as a refugee.
It is this new life in Albania, Mr. Basit and other former Guantánamo detainees say, that is driving them to desperation.
The men, Muslims from western China’s Uighur ethnic minority, were freed from their confinement in Cuba after they were found to pose no threat to the United States. They have now lived for more than a year in a squalid government refugee center on the grubby outskirts of Tirana, guarded by armed policemen.
The men have been told that they will need to get work to move out of the center, they said, but that they must learn the Albanian language to get work permits. For now, they subsist on free meals heavy with macaroni and rice, and monthly stipends of about $67, which they spend mostly on brief telephone calls to their families. But some of the men have already lost hope of ever seeing their wives and children again.
“We suffered very much at Guantánamo, but we continue to suffer here,” Mr. Basit said. “The other prisoners had their countries, but we are like orphans: we have no place to go.”
Mr. Basit and four other men here, who spent time at a hamlet in Afghanistan run by Uighur separatists, are still considered terrorist suspects by China’s Communist government. Only Albania’s pro-American government would give them asylum, but Albanian officials have since told the men they cannot afford to give them much else.
Things could be worse, the former prisoners note. At least 15 of the 17 Uighurs who remain at Guantánamo have also been cleared for release, but not even Albania will accept them — and neither will the United States. Instead, American diplomats say they have asked nearly 100 countries to provide asylum to the detainees, only to find that Chinese officials have warned some of the same countries not to accept them.
“The United States has made extensive and high-level efforts over a period of four years to try to resettle the Uighurs in countries around the world,” the State Department’s legal adviser, John B. Bellinger III, said in an interview. Its lack of success, he added, “has not been for lack of trying.”
Many American officials privately describe the Uighurs’ plight as one of the more troubling episodes of the Bush administration’s detention program. The case also provides a view of the remarkable difficulties Washington has encountered in trying to winnow the detainee population at Guantánamo in response to domestic and international criticism.
The refugees in Tirana seem to have little sense of how to influence the global chess game in which they have become involved. They spend most of their days behind the refugee center’s high, cinderblock walls, reading the Koran, studying Albanian and waiting for a turn on the center’s lone desktop computer. They avoid the gravelly soccer field because it reminds them of one they looked out on at Guantánamo.
With President Bush scheduled to visit Albania on Sunday, the Uighurs and three other former Guantánamo detainees here are also asking whether the United States, having flown them here in shackles, might do anything to help get them the housing, jobs and other support they have been told to expect.
One morning in mid-May, the five Uighurs (pronounced WEE-gurs) got permission to leave the refugee center, rode buses downtown and trooped to the offices of the Albanian prime minister, Sali Berisha. An aide said Mr. Berisha was too busy to see them, but promised to pass along their entreaties.
“We said, if you can’t deliver what you have promised, please ask George W. Bush to find another country for us,” another of the former prisoners, Abu Bakker Qassim, recalled.
Officials of the Albanian Interior Ministry, which is responsible for the refugees, declined to comment on their treatment.
The 22 Uighurs who ended up at Guantánamo were part of a group of about three dozen Uighur men who were staying at a hamlet in the White Mountains of eastern Afghanistan, not far from Tora Bora, when United States forces began bombing the area in October 2001.
Most of the five Uighurs in Tirana said they had left their homes in China’s far-western Xinjiang Province, an area the Uighurs call East Turkestan, to earn more money for their families and escape government harassment. They said they drifted into Afghanistan after travels through other Central Asian countries, and heard that the Uighur hamlet was a place where they could get free food and shelter while trying to figure out where to go next.
The youngest, Ayoub Haji Mamet, who was 18 when he was captured, had a quixotic plan to make his way across Europe and then fly to the United States to attend school.
International human rights groups have long accused the Chinese authorities of oppressing the roughly nine million Uighurs in Xinjiang, where there have been occasional acts of separatist violence. The State Department’s own 2006 human rights report for China describes ethnic discrimination, the suppression of Muslim religious freedom and the persecution of those thought to be separatists, many of whom have been executed.
Pentagon officials have described the Uighur hamlet in Afghanistan as a separatist training camp that was at least loosely aligned with the Taliban. Lawyers for the men dispute that characterization. But in interviews, the Uighurs in Albania described a tiny, primitive outpost run by secretive members of some sort of Uighur liberation group.
The men who arrived there were given chores to do and beans to eat. Most of them were assigned aliases and shown how to fire an old AK-47 assault rifle, the only weapon they saw. One American intelligence official said that some of the Uighurs still at Guantánamo received more extensive training. The leader of the hamlet, a man called Abdul Musin, told visitors that they could stay on if they wanted to “liberate” other Uighurs, the men said, but that they were also free to go.
“We do not know if he belonged to any group,” said Mr. Qassim, 38, the oldest of the five detainees. “We were not allowed to ask any questions.”
In mid-October of 2001, American planes bombed the Uighur hamlet, killing at least one man and sending the rest fleeing over the mountains into Pakistan. Villagers there sheltered and fed the Uighurs but then betrayed them to local security forces, which turned them over to the United States military.
By June 2002, nearly all the Uighurs had been sent from military detention centers in Afghanistan to Guantánamo. They described their imprisonment as bewildering and traumatic, punctuated by moments of the absurd. After they were cleared for release, they were able to watch cartoons and Harry Potter movies, until Mr. Mamet smashed the television because of what he said was the guards’ refusal to take him to a doctor. The set was replaced with one made in China, the men said dismissively; it broke after a week.
Several of the Uighurs said their most traumatic experience at Guantánamo was their interrogation by a team of Chinese security officials in September 2002. The Chinese “had all of our files from the Americans,” Mr. Qassim said, threatened them repeatedly and insisted that the prisoners return with them to China. They refused.
But American intelligence personnel at Guantánamo soon began to doubt that most of the Uighurs represented a real terrorist threat, officials who served there said. By late 2003, senior national security officials in Washington cleared most of the Uighurs for release — 14, by one official’s count.
Some officials at the Pentagon advocated sending the Uighurs back to China, and the State Department eventually sought and received assurances from the Chinese that they would treat the men humanely. But senior officials finally decided not to repatriate them, citing China’s past treatment of the Uighur minority.
The State Department began approaching both Muslim countries like Turkey and those with small Uighur communities, like Germany and Sweden. However, the search was interrupted in September 2004, when the Pentagon set up panels at Guantánamo to decide whether the prisoners there, including the 22 Uighurs, were being rightfully held. Although most of the Uighurs had already been cleared for release, the review panels found that all but six were in fact enemy combatants.
The boards were told to review the Uighur cases again, officials said. This time, they found that only five could be freed. (Subsequent annual reviews have cleared 15 of the 17 remaining detainees.)
The State Department then began casting its net more widely. One prospect was the west African republic of Gabon, which has a small Muslim minority. Gabon’s long-ruling president, Omar Bongo, said he was open to accepting the Uighurs. But according to two officials, he wanted not only compensation for resettling the refugees, but support for international loans to his government and a meeting with President Bush at the White House. He had already had one such meeting just months earlier, on May 26, 2004.
American diplomats said they had contacted governments from Angola to Switzerland to Australia. Increasingly, though, they have seen the shadows of their Chinese counterparts.
“The Chinese keep coming in behind us and scaring different countries with whom they have financial or trade relationships,” said one administration official, who insisted on anonymity in discussing diplomatic issues.
A spokeswoman for the Chinese Embassy in Washington said her government would not discuss its specific diplomatic efforts regarding the Uighurs. But in a statement, the embassy described the Uighurs at Guantánamo as “suspects of the ‘East Turkestan’ terrorist forces which constitute part of international terrorist forces,” and it said they should face justice in China.
Beijing’s ambassador to Albania has met at least three times with Mr. Berisha, the prime minister, to demand the Uighurs’ repatriation, Albanian officials said. Albania has since told Washington it cannot accept any more of the Uighur detainees.
“But we helped as much as we could,” the Albanian foreign minister, Lulzim Basha, said in an interview.
American officials said China has also been active in Germany, which has heard appeals about the Uighurs from high-level White House and State Department officials, as well as international human rights groups.
“One of the problems we’ve encountered is that they say, why doesn’t the U.S. take some of these people?” said Kenneth Roth, the executive director of Human Rights Watch, who has lobbied European governments to accept some of the Uighurs and other Guantánamo detainees.
American officials said they considered that idea. But two officials said it was shot down in 2005 by the Department of Homeland Security, which argued that the men would be barred from entering the United States under the Immigration and Nationality Act because they had been linked to a terrorist group or received “military-type training” from a group that engaged in terrorism.
Although American officials said they had compensated the Albanian government generously for taking the refugee, American diplomats in Tirana have paid little attention to the fate of the five Uighurs and the three other former Guantánamo detainees here, an Egyptian, an Algerian and an Uzbek.
“We’ve never talked to them,” said an American official who insisted on anonymity because she was not authorized to discuss the matter. “We don’t monitor them. They’re not our citizens, and there is no reason for us to.” The official attributed the shortcomings of the Albanian resettlement effort to “routine bureaucratic problems.”
The Tirana representative of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, which has helped to organize and finance the refugee program in Albania, sounded more frustrated with the slow pace of resettlement.
“The government of Albania agreed to provide asylum to these people,” the official, Hossein Kheradmand, said. “We are not talking about 5,000 or 6,000 people; we are talking about eight people.”
The detainees have tried to fend for themselves. Mr. Mamet, the only one of the Uighurs who is single, found a young Albanian Muslim woman to marry but the arrangement collapsed when he could not move out of the refugee center. The others seem torn between longing for their families, who may never be able to leave China, and hope that they might someday start over.
After what they said had been endless promises of help from Albanian officials, they asked late last year to be moved to another country. They were told that because they were in a “safe” country, the United Nations could not relocate them. And anyway, no other country would have them. Lately, they have considered a hunger strike, a protest method they sometimes used in Cuba.
“After four and a half years, we thought we had escaped from Guantánamo, but we are still living under that shadow,” Mr. Qassim said. “Sometimes we think it would be better to go die in our homeland than to stay here.”
Raymond Bonner contributed reporting from Washington.
posted June 10, 2007 at 11:06 AM unofficial Xinjiang time | HaoHao This!
Comments
When I spoke with a Uighur girl recently about Chinese control of E. Turkestan, it was interesting that she began crying. I asked why, and she replied, "Don't you love your country?"
Imagine, the situation in Tibet and Xinjiang. Highly simplified, the Chinese take-over the territory, control the government with their own ethnic representatives, make their language the official language, expropriate all of the resources, move-in millions of Han Chinese peasants, and suddenly the natives are foreigners in their own country. With relatively small native populations and no significant outside support, the government, police, infrastructure, education, internet, legal system, banking system, etc. are all controlled by Chinese and when jobs are created, guess who gets jobs? Xinjiang and Tibet are just boldfaced conquests of brute force.
The comment above was posted by el condor at June 10, 2007 12:17 PM unofficial Xinjiang time.
@el condor,
You don't know what heck you are talking about it. Chinese firmly control the region were few hundreds years back and just like when today's Americans claims the lands of America. Millions of Han Chinese were moved into the Altai region that even not part of Turkestan. That regions were mainly live by Dzunger Mongols and Kahazaks who have no beef with Hans.
The extrame policy of Maoists during Culture Revolution was bad, not just for Uyghur and Tibetan but for everyone in China, the current Chinese policy is not like what you read from Western media to "genocide" Uyghurs and Tibetans. Actually the Uyghur population increased from barely over 2M to 9M today, and Tibetan from 2M to 6M. Compare what American Indian population today and the time when Europeans came in, you may find the matter is so different.
Of course, some of Uyghurs want the independence and China would not allow that happen. Some of them may go to military mean that also get fierce responses from Chinese government. But most of them may understand best way is to work out something benefit both sides. The situation is not much difference from UK and North Ireland, Spain and Basque, or Turkey and Kurd or Kosovo and Serbia. The only difference is that US/NATO can only bomb Serbia out, and cannot bomb UK, Spain, Turkey, and China out.
The comment above was posted by Sha at June 11, 2007 08:21 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.
Sha:
You don't know your history, China has used extreme violence dating back to the battle of Talas river to control central asia, including E. Turkmenistan.
China's long history is one of filthy barbarism.
The comment above was posted by nanheyangrouchuan at June 11, 2007 10:31 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.
@nanheyangrouchuan,
When I said that the history is peaceful? All the wars in Central Asia were bloody. And what heck is Turkmenistan you keep pops out of here?
Well, from a historic standard point, Roman, Persia, India and China didn't have chance to win that "barbarism" title.
The comment above was posted by sha at June 11, 2007 11:35 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.
what's the point of degrading yourself to reason with a three-day old yangrouchuan?
These five Uighur men can be on the NYT only because they provide new ammunation to bash China. The very fact also reflects USA's flexibility, even on the sacred 'war on terrow' when you can bend the facts to attack China. Or only terrow on USA interests are defined as 'terrorism'. Either explanation is right, depending on your perspective. Funny people never asked the question why there five men ended up in US's hands and why they were captures in Afganistan? Each year millions of people relocate to foreign countries and encounter difficulties? What's unique to these 5 men? The answer is simple, because China is involoved and you know the western media will jump on any chance to denigrate China.
While China is moving in the trach way to develop itself into a stronger and more prosperous country, I am wainting to see losers like nanheyangrouchuan to get more and more despairing and desperate. Let's all work hard and build a better country for all chinese people inculding the Uighurs, and let the Nanheyangrouchuan-type losers consumed by jealousy and hatrid.
The comment above was posted by office dweller at June 11, 2007 08:13 PM unofficial Xinjiang time.
and to Michal the boss here, 1st thank you for this blog. It's great. secondly controversial entries will attract potential confrontational posts. I suppose you know this much better than anyone else. While "boring" entries make everyone yawn and have few comments, these "controversial" ones have long pages of heated arguments. However I do apologize for my occasional 'bad' language. But no apologies to anti-China bigots like stinky Yangrouchuan. I swear to myself to match his level of lowness. I would be happy to see him in the hell.
The comment above was posted by office dweller at June 11, 2007 08:25 PM unofficial Xinjiang time.
yangrouchuan is a jerk which stinks everywhere.
The comment above was posted by cc at June 11, 2007 08:32 PM unofficial Xinjiang time.
@Sha
The fact is that China, the country that you're talking about, has been many, many different, independent kingdoms over the millennia, and a few hundred years back, the government of China couldn't even control China proper, much less the distant regions of Xinjiang and Tibet.
Only since the end of the Second World War has Xinjiang been colonized and exploited, and this has only been achieved by the brutal subjugation of the Uighurs and the denial of their right to self-determination. Today, if you go to Xinjiang and you will see a lot of Chinese (who control the government, infrastructure, and get the funds for infrastructure and development from back east) getting rich, while Uighurs (who are a minority in their own country, dispossessed of their land and culture, and frequently don't speak the official language well) live in poverty -- mud houses -- and they know well how much the Chinese look down upon and despise them.
Likewise, your historical parallels show a very poor understanding of history and international law, but thinking by analogy is a very leaky means of argument, particularly in consideration of the subtleties of law and history. That said, the fact is that China's policy in Xinjiang has nothing to do with what's right for the people of Xinjiang (most certainly not the Uighurs), who were more than 90% Uighur in 1955 (just about the time when the communists killed the Uighur leadership), a figure which has been whittled down to less than 40% over the last 40 years. The Uighurs most certainly don't want the Chinese there, and the Chinese are only there to dominate, impose their culture and rule, and to exploit the region's resources.
For the Uighurs this leaves a choice of entering a system that is structurally, socially, culturally, linguistically, etc. biased against them or live in exclusion and poverty. And you can imagine how the Uighurs feel when they look at their independent Central Asian brethren in Turkmenistan and Kazakhstan, who have grown rich and powerful from their natural resources, while wealth of the Uighur's land has been expropriated by the Chinese.
The comment above was posted by el condor at June 11, 2007 11:44 PM unofficial Xinjiang time.
@el condor:
>~For the Uighurs this leaves a choice of entering a system that is structurally, socially, culturally, linguistically, etc. biased against them or live in exclusion and poverty."
You know this is bull shit, right? Uighurs have lower IQ compared to Han Chinese. You know that. (if not, you are idiot).So according to `IQ and the Wealth of Nations -- Lynn and Vanhanen', Uighurs will never be wealthier than Han Chinese. Just cut those politically correct argument (shit) away. Uighurs will be live better under rule of chinese than not. Look all those native people with low IQ in their home land. Yuk.
http://www.isteve.com/IQ_Table.htm
The comment above was posted by incorrectpolitically at June 12, 2007 01:01 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.
I guess if we talk about Xinjiang and Tibet busy enough we can forget about what's going on in Irqa. Talking aobut Xinjiang to save your own ass, that's the way i see it. To that end, sensationizing, dramatizing, bending facts, feeding people with lies to produce more and more idiots in western countries can all be employed. I think US is getting better and better at this.
The comment above was posted by office dweller at June 12, 2007 01:09 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.
@el condor
Your history is much different than even a Uyghur historian will tell you. The firmly Chinese control of the current Xinjiang region was at Kanxi Emperor's time after he defeated Galdan of Dzunger Mongol who control both Altar and Tarim regions. There were more rebellions later on during Yongzhen and Qianlong time, and most famously around 1870-80 with support of Russia, seperation movement did get in full swing that requires General Zuo Zhongdang to quell things down.
In your mind that there is a unified national Uyghur state which wasn't true at the time. There were Kashgarians, Khotans, etc. Qing's rule at least stopped frequent fightings for supermacy between those different oasis factions which in turn boosted Uyghur population from around 250K to about 2M around 1910 when Qing's rule end. Today's movement came around 1920s when Pan-Turkism was promoted in West as a counter-strategy to undermine first Tsar then USSR. There were one ETR state was built but quickly was ran over by Muslim forces, and 2nd ETR in Ili which went to in a deal wtih CCP which results the XAR. Communist forces were come in WITHOUT resistance and in many places being welcomed by Uyghurs. That would be a surprise for you, I guess. As matter fact, CCP's ethnic policy indeed increased the common identity of Uyghur people.
No one denied the policy of Culture Revolution wasn't benefit anyone, but if you think that people in Xinjiang will look on Central Asia 'Stans and resentment what they have in China, you are talking your ass off here. Many of people who ran away from China at 196x/7x, came to a time to regret that they don't stay in China.
Again, you still don't really understand the difference between Tarim Basin and Altar Region and keep talking about Han immigrants to make Uyghurs minority in their own "country".
Please cut your self-determination crap out. Like Albanians are OK to self-determine Kosovo out of Serbia, but Serbians are NOT allowed to self-determine part of Kosovo out of Kosovo. Like Basque cannot self-determine out of Spain and France, Northern Ireland cannot self-determin out of UK. Or whoever in US cannot self-determine out of US (remember American civil war?). Or Kurds cannot self-determine out of Turkey. But if you are someone in China, or Russia, that is fine to do so. Sure the history wasn't full of roses but what people can do today is trying to work out something making sense.
Uyghurs have the chooce too:
1)Fight for independance with supports from West countries. Which sounds very good for people of West because their lifes and lives are not on the line here. No matter what result, anyone got into a slug of head butt between two superpowers in the world will NOT survive. Period.
2)Stay in Chinese bandawagon. When China becomes the number 1 economic power in the world, Uyghurs should be benefited as everyone else in the country. Just be glad to give your contribution to make the pie and glad to eat your part of pies too. If you feel that you should get a little more of pies, please do screaming, crying, and kicking to get things resolved INSIDE the framework. Historically, Uyghurs is most frendly Turkic group with Hans and was benefited by not disappering westword and sininazed into Hans.
The comment above was posted by sha at June 12, 2007 01:56 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.
"Uighurs have lower IQ compared to Han Chinese. You know that"
Then why has it taken the master Han race so long to even fully conquer E. Turkmenistan? Bad, dirty, low down China has been mired in filth with everyone fighting to be The Big Boss, and now the poor Uyghurs are made to suffer in CHina's filthy pollution and silly greed.
China is a failed state much like Africa and needs to conquer other countries to keep the people from turning against the CCP.
Bad, silly China.
The comment above was posted by nanheyangrouchuan at June 12, 2007 06:33 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.
nanheyangrouchuan,
Please use "East Turkestan" instead of "East Turkmenistan". There is a difference between the two.
Cheers,
Heverci
The comment above was posted by heverci at June 12, 2007 08:21 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.
@heverci,
Good call on that. LOL.
The comment above was posted by Sha at June 12, 2007 09:19 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.
@Sha
I have no doubts about your ability to regurgitate the CCP line on history, nor do I have any doubts about their ability to fabricate such an internally consistent and selective reality.
Your fantasy about China's ascendancy benefiting everyone is just wrongheaded and rests upon a great number of false assumptions. While I don't have time to go over this with you here, since you seem to have so much time on your hands, this is hot off the press!
China: Minority Exclusion, Marginalization and Rising Tensions
The comment above was posted by el condor at June 12, 2007 04:43 PM unofficial Xinjiang time.
why don't you just send your mariners into Xinjiang instead of inciting hatred between Hans and Uighurs? Because you don't want to spare your own blood. You want to see either Hans or Uighurs were killed while you can watch in a safe distance? Western powers have been playing this game for centuries. Cowardry and devious are their nature. They won't stop inciting until the Hans and Uighurs start cutting each other's throat. I am always amazed how blazen-faces the western countries are. Generation after generation, westerns colonized, looted, conquered, decimated and raped every corner of the earth. They planted plenty seeds of disharmoney and conflict. Their hands are soaked in blood. Yet they still have the nerve to tell other nations how to behave morally. Pathetic! They don't want to treat China as a equal and they will do anything to stop China becoming stronger. Chinese people should realize this and be prepared to fight the rogue states under the leadership of USA.
The comment above was posted by office dweller at June 12, 2007 09:20 PM unofficial Xinjiang time.
@stinky 3-day-old yangrouchuan,
If china were such a hopelessly failed state, losers like you needn't gather here for the China-bashing meetings. You are disgracing this place. Do all of us a favor, throw yourself in the trash. All Yangrouchuan should be thrown in the trash after 3 days, because they smell like hell.
The comment above was posted by office dweller at June 12, 2007 09:26 PM unofficial Xinjiang time.
The Times is a bit late on this. The Wall Street Journal told those poor guys' story in June 2006. I archived the piece at my site if you're interested(http://www.pierretristam.com/Bobst/Archives/CN060206.htm ).
The comment above was posted by Pierre Tristam at June 13, 2007 04:24 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.
@el condor,
Nice. When you cannot face the historic facts, just accuse someone as Commie. If you was born many decades earlier, you probably can find a job as assistant of MaCarthy.
For me there is nothing to be fantasy about China's raise to benefit everyone, because I am doing it. Currently, I am working on a project especially designed for Xinjiang, Tibet, and Inner-Mongolia. It is computer-controlled medical equipment that can operate by easy-trained operator to take the medical images of patients and download on the web, so highly skilled doctors in Beijing, Shanghai, Hong Kong and San Francisco can do the work. The goal is to supply the best services without charges to my fellow countrymen--Uyghurs, Khazaks, Kirgis, Uzbiks, Tajiks, Mongols, Dauers, and Tibetans. Whatever propaganda you put there doesn't matter to me. I am just doing my work and find more and more people and money for those projects.
The comment above was posted by sha at June 13, 2007 02:40 PM unofficial Xinjiang time.
Now I know who got Bush's watch!
The comment above was posted by FOARP at June 13, 2007 04:40 PM unofficial Xinjiang time.
Western powers have no interest in improving the life of ethnic groups in China. They don't hold these groups' living standards, education, medical care in heart. On the contrary, they want to incite hatred, plant seeds of disharmony and see Han people and ethnic groups killing eath other off. The western powers are sharks who love the smell of blood. They want to see bloodshed. This is encoded in their genes. Just read their histories.
The comment above was posted by office dweller at June 13, 2007 09:21 PM unofficial Xinjiang time.
"You want to see either Hans or Uighurs were killed while you can watch in a safe distance? Western powers have been playing this game for centuries. Cowardry and devious are their nature."
Han have been crushing Uyghur babies and raping women for millenia, the US does not need to incite anything. The Uyghur and Hui have suffered at the hands of Han long before there was a US.
Every ethnic group that comes into contact with Han hordes is withered to nothing.
The comment above was posted by nanheyangrouchuan at June 14, 2007 12:36 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.
Anyone from Uyghur Independent camp cares to teach nanheyangrouchuan some history about Central Asia? If you don't know the difference of Turkistan and Turkimenistan, or the word "hordes", or anything from the rich history of Huns, Turks, Khitans, Mongols, etc., suggest to read something before open the mouth.
The comment above was posted by sha at June 14, 2007 01:23 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.
You can't teach that old dog anything. He's simply a Shabi (一傻逼）.
The comment above was posted by office dweller at June 14, 2007 07:06 PM unofficial Xinjiang time.
History lesson sha? Try doing a search for "battle of talas river" or didn't you learn about that in big commie school?
The comment above was posted by nanheyangrouchuan at June 15, 2007 05:04 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.
What heck the "Battle of Talas" has to do with Uyghurs? If you don't a shit, don't keep dropping a word here and there. For Alah's sake, you even don't know the difference between Turkistan and Turkimenistan, how you know much thing about this part of world?
I saw in a different place, that you mentioned the Chinese surplus is due to the hundreds of millions assists from outside world, and someone just point out to you that hundreds of millions is only 0.01% of China's 1T reserve fund. That just show how good you are.
Here, people like me and heverci, who has different views, are always enjoy frankly, civil discussions and talks. Please go other place to find a cheap size to filfull your anti-China non-sense. Don't waste the valuable space in this lovely blogsite.
The comment above was posted by sha at June 15, 2007 09:33 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.
"What heck the "Battle of Talas" has to do with Uyghurs?"
That battle was China's only big military push into central asia, stopped by the Persians who were outnumbered 2-1 and who didn't have gunpowder, grenades, etc. while the chinese did. The Chinese lost so badly that the few who were left alive were captured and academics were forced to teach the Persians how to make gunpowder, paper and a printing press so that Islam could be spread through books.
And again, if hundreds of millions of USD is such a small amount, why can't China spend that kind of money to clean up the environment, provide universal education, build a social safety net and all of those other things that the vastly superior western countries do with their money? Because China is a filthy, cheap junkyard and you can't handle the truth.
The comment above was posted by nanheyangrouchuan at June 15, 2007 11:00 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.
By educating us on the 'battle of Talas' many of us already knew, what point are you trying to prove here? Do you even have a point? This is not an exam, and even in an exam, writing down irrelevant facts in such a disorganized way often doesn't get you any partial score.
You hundreds of posts on various forums and blogs have three things in common, they don't have a point, they are stupid, and they emanate anti-China stench.
The comment above was posted by office dweller at June 15, 2007 08:13 PM unofficial Xinjiang time.
What else is China up to?
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Inside the Ring
By Bill Gertz
June 15, 2007
China arming terrorists
New intelligence reveals China is covertly supplying large quantities of small arms and weapons to insurgents in Iraq and the Taliban militia in Afghanistan, through Iran.
U.S. government appeals to China to check some of the arms shipments in advance were met with stonewalling by Beijing, which insisted it knew nothing about the shipments and asked for additional intelligence on the transfers. The ploy has been used in the past by China to hide its arms-proliferation activities from the United States, according to U.S. officials with access to the intelligence reports.
Some arms were sent by aircraft directly from Chinese factories to Afghanistan and included large-caliber sniper rifles, millions of rounds of ammunition, rocket-propelled grenades and components for roadside bombs, as well as other small arms.
The Washington Times reported June 5 that Chinese-made HN-5 anti-aircraft missiles were being used by the Taliban.
According to the officials, the Iranians, in buying the arms, asked Chinese state-run suppliers to expedite the transfers and to remove serial numbers to prevent tracing their origin. China, for its part, offered to transport the weapons in order to prevent the weapons from being interdicted.
The weapons were described as "late-model" arms that have not been seen in the field before and were not left over from Saddam Hussein's rule in Iraq.
U.S. Army specialists suspect the weapons were transferred within the past three months.
The Bush administration has been trying to hide or downplay the intelligence reports to protect its pro-business policies toward China, and to continue to claim that China is helping the United States in the war on terrorism. U.S. officials have openly criticized Iran for the arms transfers but so far there has been no mention that China is a main supplier.
Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates said Wednesday that the flow of Iranian arms to Afghanistan is "fairly substantial" and that it is likely taking place with the help of the Iranian government.
Defense officials are upset that Chinese weapons are being used to kill Americans. "Americans are being killed by Chinese-supplied weapons, with the full knowledge and understanding of Beijing where these weapons are going," one official said.
The arms shipments show that the idea that China is helping the United States in the war on terrorism is "utter nonsense," the official said.
John Tkacik, a former State Department official now with the Heritage Foundation, said the Chinese arms influx "continues 10 years of willful blindness in both Republican and Democrat administrations to China's contribution to severe instability in the Middle East and South Asia."
Mr. Tkacik said the administration should be candid with the American people about China's arms shipments, including Beijing's provision of man-portable air-defense missiles through Iran and Syria to warring factions in Lebanon and Gaza.
Apologists for China within the government said the intelligence reports were not concrete proof of Chinese and Iranian government complicity.
Pentagon spokesmen declined to comment. A spokesman for the Chinese Embassy did not return telephone calls seeking comment.
Iran boat threat
Iran is adding Chinese-made small boats armed with anti-ship cruise missiles to the Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps navy that can be used in attacks on shipping in the oil-rich Persian Gulf, according to the Office of Naval Intelligence (ONI).
"Iran still states that the [Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps navy] will employ swarming tactics in a conflict," ONI analyst Robert Althage said in an e-mail, noting that the paramilitary organization "continues to add boats armed with anti-ship cruise missiles, such as the FL-10, to its inventory."
China began supplying Iran over the past several years with small, high-speed C-14 catamarans armed with the optically guided FL-10 anti-ship cruise missiles.
Mr. Althage said in response to questions posed by Bloomberg News that recent exercises by the Iranians did not show any new capabilities and that the maneuvers appeared designed "for publicity."
Currently, Iran operates three Russian-made Kilo submarines but has not yet mined waterways, the ONI analyst stated.
A 2004 ONI report said the Iranian IRGC navy has more than 1,000 small boats ranging in length from 17 to 60 feet, and many are concentrated near the strategic Strait of Hormuz, where a large majority of the world's oil passes.
The boats can be used in attacks against shipping and include infantry weapons, unguided barrage rockets, recoilless guns, shoulder-fired surface-to-air missiles and rocket-propelled grenades.
North Korea watch
U.S. intelligence agencies think North Korea is continuing development of nuclear weapons, as well as working on "miniaturization" of weapons for missile warheads, according to a senior Bush administration official.
Since the February nuclear accord reached in Beijing, North Korea has continued work on weapons, said a senior Bush administration official involved in North Korean affairs.
"There are no indications that they are not pursuing a nuclear weapons capability, to include the weaponization and miniaturization," the official said.
U.S. intelligence officials think North Korea, which received equipment through the covert Pakistani nuclear-supplier network headed by Abdul Qadeer Khan, obtained Chinese documents on designing a small warhead, the key to developing a nuclear weapon small enough for missile warheads.
The Chinese-language warhead design documents were first uncovered in Libya, which gave up its nuclear program in 2003.
Three recent missile tests in North Korea over the past several weeks were anti-ship cruise missiles fired during exercises that were not unusual for North Korean military forces at this time of year, the official said.
"Those who are looking at the six-party process and where we are today with [the Banco Delta Asia funds transfer] are very disappointed," the senior official said. "This doesn't build confidence. This is a time that is very tense and we want to go to implementing the 13 February agreement. So even though this is a normal exercises, I think there is an element of disappointment that North Korea would move in that direction."
North Korea has shown no signs of preparing of another underground nuclear test but "they could have a nuclear test at any time with minimal or no warning," the official said.
The October test was a "nuclear event" but the blast caused by the test was smaller than North Korea had hoped, the official said.
c Bill Gertz covers the Pentagon. He can be reached at 202/636-3274 or at bgertz @washingtontimes.com.
The comment above was posted by nanheyangrouchuan at June 16, 2007 06:03 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.
Yeah, right.
The comment above was posted by office dweller at June 16, 2007 11:15 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.
Hmm, I thought the battle of Talas was meerly a border clash between the Arabs and the Chinese?
Anyway, um, hmm, it seems like nearly everyone wants to take a bash at each others race, damn. I thought Michael set up this blog to connect with ppl, not bring up another net race war?!
Oh yeah, hows it going Michael, we need another caption contest!!!
The comment above was posted by the michael manning blog visitor at June 16, 2007 08:47 PM unofficial Xinjiang time.
China would like to think it was a "border clash", that way they could have some sort of claim over most of Kazakstan (they claim 30% as it is).
The comment above was posted by nanheyangrouchuan at June 17, 2007 07:42 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.
@the michael manning blog visitor,
Totally agree with you about Michael's intention. But you cannot exclude some nutheads just spread propaganda here without any meaningful discussion and exchange.
One reason that Tang Dynasty had the ability to expand was due to its commanding of mighty East Turk and Uyghur forces. Of course, at that time, the Chinese Emperor Li Shiming was as much as Chinease as Turk.
The comment above was posted by Sha at June 18, 2007 12:26 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.
The Persian/muslim army that opposed the Tang was comprised of Persians, Turks and Uyghurs who refused to submit to Han rule.
The comment above was posted by nanheyangrouchuan at June 19, 2007 06:21 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.
http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/198205/the.battle.of.talas.htm
This is for anyone who really interested on histroy.
The comment above was posted by Sha at June 20, 2007 04:05 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.
Sha:
Thanks for the link, I would provide my own but you did such a good job of shooting yourself in the foot. Bad China faced Uyghur Turks rebelling in Mongolia as well as Qarluqs who were in actuality the Uyghur empire (http://www.allempires.com/article/index.php?q=The_Uyghur_Empire)
As you can see, China is all about oppression, destruction and obedience and eventually gets bitten hard by all those it seeks to rule. The same article Sha mentions also discusses the whipping that Bad China took from the Thais, Mongolians and Manchurians soon after Talas.
bwaaaaaaahahhahaahahaaaa! Foolish china.
The comment above was posted by nanheyangrouchuan at June 20, 2007 05:54 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.
This guy is as stupid as the moron Peter Nivarro. He was completely consumed by hatred toward China and doesn't know what he is talking about. What this world isn't short of is another China bashing moron and this stinky yangrouchuan examplifies it very very well.
By the way, this devious moron never bothered to disclose his country of origin. Please do it if you have guts. I am sure your country is anything china is not. I would be happy to put your country under the microscope and give it a thorough examination of its past, present and we can compare your country to China in each possilbe catagory. China is not bitter, you are bitter. You are jealous. You wish your country had what China had. China has too many achievements in various fields to be proud of while your country or group may not even be on the map. China has enough confidence in herself to stand any vicous attacks from morons like you. Just come out of your closet, disclose your country of origin, and we can start the head on head comparision between your country and my country. Don't just be a barking dog from the dark. Come to the light and let the game begin. I challenge you. And I am confident your country is nothing compared to China. Don't agree? Come forward with your country of orgin and let the fun begin.
The comment above was posted by office dweller at June 20, 2007 10:08 PM unofficial Xinjiang time.
Anybody interested to know where this idiotic bigotry moron 'nanheyangrouchuan' comes from can just pouch in its name is google and that will lead you to the hundreds of china-bashing posts he crapped on different forums. And you can find that he was invariously not taken seriously and treated as a clown on those forums. He's a hardcore anti-china loser. I suggest we do the same on this blog, i.e., not taking this moron that seriously and ignoring his sh*t. And seems to me taht this moron lives in 'Bad China which is rotten to the core'(this is the moron's mantra). That's something i don't understand. If you China makes you so unhappy why don't leave this country? I think Chinese people would be happy to throw the trash away.
The comment above was posted by office dweller at June 20, 2007 10:26 PM unofficial Xinjiang time.
". You are jealous. You wish your country had what China had. China has too many achievements in various fields to be proud of while your country or group may not even be on the map."
I'm very happy the US does not have such filthy air, water and food, doesn't have a huge excess of boys and the surfaces of US sidewalks aren't covered in bodily fluids and garbage. So just what are China's achievements?
"If you China makes you so unhappy why don't leave this country? I think Chinese people would be happy to throw the trash away."
I would rather stay and spy on China. If you want me to leave you and your chinese boyfriend butt-grabbers will have to come and find me among the other foriengers. Just look for the white guy with one or three chinese girls with him.
The comment above was posted by nanheyangrouchuan at June 21, 2007 04:17 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.
Having three chinese girls (some of them may be whores anyway) with you doesn't make you less a loser. It makes you a bigger loser. I guess girls will just tell you to get lost here in the states. We all know that many white losers go to asia to have what they can't have in the states, preying on local girls who don't know better. It's old news now. However it doesn't change the fact that you are still a loser.
US is a great country in many ways and it happens to be one of the countries I have some respect for and the country I choose to stay in. It also offered me an oppotunity to study in an IVY league university and work in one of the leading Investment Banks which pays me very well and gives me a comfortable life. It also gives me the oppotuity to support my extended family back in China with dollars I make here which in turns help with my hometown's economy. I have many Chinese friends here who are doing exactly the same thing. Some even donated money to build new schools or buy modern teaching instruments in their villages. We are doing something meaningful and we are contributing to our hometown's and country's development. I take pride in the fact that I am making something out of my life and I am happy that many Chinese are doing the same. I thank US for this oppotunity.
US is also a competitive country and that's why losers like you can't compete and prosper here and are forced out of this country without "filthy air, water and food". Maybe that's why you are bitter, maybe that's why you have to have 'three chinese girls' in an futile attempt to cover up the fact that you are a loser. Don't you feel jsut a little bit sad that all you can do is spreading poisonous anti-china propaganda online and all you can show off is 'three chinese girls (whores)'? Do you have a life? I hope the stinky old Yangrouchuan gives you some food poison and end your wasted and meaningless life. You are a disgrace to the whole human being and you are wasting the world's scarce resources while contributing nothing. You are even poisoning people's mind. Do all of us a favor and let the stinky Yangrouchuan kill you now.
Nobody would argue over the fact that China lags behind US in many aspects at this moment. However a country with a long history and deep culture roots are ensured to come back. And more importantly Chinese people have confidence. And today's Chinese people are one of the most progressive and enterprising peoples in the world. Many qualities that help bring US to its status can be more easily found in China now. These qualities and Chinese people's sense of mission to be great again make me confident in China's and Chinese people's future. And that's exactly what scares narrow-minded bigots like you most. That's what drives you to spew out anti-china propaganda like there is no tomorrow. You may be running around like a crazy and scared chicken, but you can't stop the development and progress China is making. YOu may bark and bark, but you can't derail Chinese people's mission to build a better country. You'd better end your meaningless life today by the stinky and poisonous Yangrouchuan now so you won't have the pain of seeing a stronger and better China tomorrow. Do all of us a favor. Just do it. YOu don't have a life anyway.
The comment above was posted by office dweller at June 21, 2007 08:55 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.
So in one post you exhort China's greatness but in your newest post you admit that you took at job as a "quant" because you couldn't handle life in China and that the US is admittedly far superior to bad, dirty China that can only steal and make good copies.
Your frustration about China's condition also belies the fact that you can't get any girls here and would like to bring over a girl from China except more and more of them have had a taste of western man and can't go back.
The comment above was posted by nanheyangrouchuan at June 21, 2007 11:39 PM unofficial Xinjiang time.
The discussions in this blog have really gone to shit, sorry Michael. There's always a bigot or two lurking around in the blog, spoils the experience. Especially on this page.
The comment above was posted by the michael manning blog visitor at June 22, 2007 09:06 PM unofficial Xinjiang time.
Michael, you haven't answered my question for a few days, when is the next frickin caption contest?!
The comment above was posted by the michael manning blog visitor at June 22, 2007 09:12 PM unofficial Xinjiang time.
Well. I'm a young man from the city of Urumqi, Xinjiang. I was born there and have lived there for 21 years before I went to my university.
I don't care about political issues when I was young, but now it has changed. I am not a Uyghur,
but I am also an another kind of minority in Xinjiang. I will say 3 of my points of view here.
First, never say that a race is stupid or low IQ. People who said this is actually stupid and will
make other consider that he/she is not well educated. Frankly, every ethnic groups who are not extinct and still living nowadays, they can't be looked down upon. If they are stupid they may
disappear before thousand years already. Right? Whatever they are rich, poor, with big population
or less, they still live! This is an indelible truth.(People who don't agree with me on the 1st
point plz go away.)
Second, why so many people despising and becoming snooty about Uyghur, the very basic reason, is
that they are so poor. Most people naturally despise those people who are poor. And why the Uyghur is so poor? Look back to their history, you will see that the Uyghur is good at trade, there're a lot of merchants in early Uyghur history. They traded with each other to make wealth and living. That's normal in the progress of human's history.Many ethnic groups in the world are inherent merchants. But today, they still doing little business to make a hard living! Why? Where is their merited jobs? See most of Uyghur is poor, however some of them is better, but they don't have enough power to develope their own culture, their own economy. Why? Because their lives are overly impressed and changed by everything that from the Han people. So far, there're more and more Han people "surge" into Xinjiang, they make their living and work here. Thus, inevitable changes between the 2 groups occurs. The most drastic differenct is that the Uyghur are muslim, but most Han have no any religions. And everything between them are quite unique, that's why they're interested or strange about each other. For me, I am a Xibe minority in Xinjiang(You all can check my ethnic group on Wiki or Google.), we people are a kind of people who living with agricultural skills. Most of my people live in Cha-bu-cha-er autonomous county. Several years ago, many Han farms came to this county and grew cotton or watermelons as their lives. Apparently it seemed that they developed the local economy and live with natives in harmony. In fact there're a lot of hidden problems. The Han farmers gradually began to control the economy environment in the county, and this resulted in that we Xibe people began to lose their own farms ever since about 200 years ago!And every time when I came back to my hometown, if I want to say "Hi!Nice to see you!" to a local my people, then I find that he can't answer me at all! Why? Because he is a Han, not a Xibe! That really sucks! At last, as my uncle said, the Han is just like the locusts(grasshoppers). I now understand it. See, now, you can see Han everywhere in the world, isn't it just like the migration of locusts? I called it some kind of cultural and population intrusion. The Han is not like American. If the American wants to intrude some country, they will go there directly and do what they want, just like they want to control Iraq! But Han is different from them. That's because of the ideas left behind by ancient Chinese scholars. If there's a pie, then the American will eat it just by a bite with mouthful; But NOTICE what the Chinese will do. They may first praise how good is the chef's skill, then eat it a little by a little, every time just a small bite, which will make others think it's decent and polite. Whatever, the pie will be eaten finally!Right? Ok, let me make another example. Can you imagine that how does a silkworm eat a leaf of a mulberry? It will bite the leaf with its tiny mouth again and again till the whole leaf is eaten! See, Chinese is just like the silkworm. And if the American is a bird, when it wants to eat a worm on the branch, the bird will just catch the worm and swallow! See the difference?Third, you can't imagine the true things happened in the govnerment. In most goverments in the world, the rules they made or the things they do may be secrets that they may never tell the citizens. That's why there're FBI and CIA exist in USA. Have you every think about that, is everything published or announced by your govenment the truth? Is every articles you read on the newspaper really happened? What information you got by any media from the goverment may be a lie, this is not unbelievable! Because we live in the government's rules! They will tell me what is happy and believable to us, they won't tell me what is not favorable that is against their advantages. This idea can be found in many historical, political or economic books easily. Use your own head and eyes, to see the truth unless you living and researching in Xinjiang for years before you want to say something.
Finally, there's a little thing I saw in my Urumchi last summer. And this is a true story. One afternoon when I took a walk in the street, I saw many people standing around a van. That's a van from the one of local TV station. The reporter tried to gather news from a common Uyghur guy who was just walked by the van. The reporter did nothing but ask the guy to say what the reporter wanted the guy to say. I can't believe my ears at that time and shocked! Do you know what the reporter wanted the guy to say? He wanted him saying "We Uyghur living well and thanks to goverment's help and lead!" I thought many stander-bies at that time being shocked,too! The reporter wanted the Uyghur guy to tell a lie! Was Uyghur living well? Were more and more Uyghur
becoming satisfied with thier lives? The answer is no!
Then another thing, search anything you want to know about the Uyghur and E. Turkistan with Google or other Chinese search engines, then you will find that you got no results sometimes! And at the bottom in the pages there's always a little notice: According to the local laws, some of the results will not be displayed here. See? Why? Because there's Great Wall Firewall! It can filtrate anything that is not what they want the people see and know! What a deceptive manner!
The comment above was posted by focus-2007 at June 25, 2007 10:25 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.
Thanks focus-2007 for telling the reality in East Turkestan and exposing the Chinese mentality. I'm deeply appreciated. By the way, I was also born and lived my 20 years there.
The comment above was posted by Heverci at June 25, 2007 10:49 PM unofficial Xinjiang time.
@focus-2007: quote "The Han is not like American. If the American wants to intrude some country, they will go there directly and do what they want, just like they want to control Iraq! But Han is different from them. That's because of the ideas left behind by ancient Chinese scholars. If there's a pie, then the American will eat it just by a bite with mouthful; But NOTICE what the Chinese will do. They may first praise how good is the chef's skill, then eat it a little by a little, every time just a small bite, which will make others think it's decent and polite. Whatever, the pie will be eaten finally!"
If anybody knows Chinese, you'll be surprised by the similarity of focus-2007's statements and the following excerpt from the Kul Tigin (阙特勤) monument erected in 8th century in present day Mongolia :
“汉人的话语始终甜蜜，汉人的物品始终精美。利用甜蜜的话语和精美的物品进行欺骗，汉人便以这种方式令远方的民族接近他们。当一个部落如此接近他们居住之后，汉人便萌生恶意。汉人不让真正聪明的人和真正勇敢的人获得发展。如若有人犯了错误，汉人决不赦免任何他人，从其直系亲属，直到氏族、部落。你们这些突厥人啊，曾因受其甜蜜话语和精美物品之惑，大批人遭到杀害。啊，突厥人，你们将要死亡！……如果你们前赴这些地方，突厥人啊，你们便将死亡！如果你们留在于都斤山地区，从此派遣队商，你们便将无忧无虑。如果你们留在于都斤山，便能主宰着诸部，永远生活下去！”
The comment above was posted by heverci at June 27, 2007 09:52 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.
@heverci,
Not that different from how Jews are perceived by the west and the arabs. If this isn't naked racial discrimination and despicable racial stereotype, I don't know what is. I don't doubt your will to exterminate the Hans. Too bad we are too populous and too strong for you to do the job.
@focus-2007,
You are a hypocrite at best. You start you post with all the 'political correctness' crap(wrong to call any race stupid......) Then you start your racial slurs (Han chinese are locusts...). You can barely conceive your racial prejudice. Maybe being a so-called 'minority' you can never be guilty of racism? I don't know.
If you know the history of Xibe people, maybe you can understand your hypocrisy better. Xibe is by no means native people of Xinjiang. They migrated to Xinjiang from NOrtheastern China when Manchus came to power. You are agaist Han chinese migration into Xinjiang while you have no problem Xibe migrating into Xinjiang. By the way, i am curious how you were born and raised in Urumuqi instead of your native county? Didn't your parents migrate to Urumuqi from your county? If they are entitled the right to pursue happiness and success, why can't the Han chinese farmers? Yes, Han chinese are "all over the world". So what? All people are migrating. Just that some people more sucessful than others. Uighurs move to various cities too. If you are so against migration, you should go back to your Xibe village right now and stay there for the rest of your life.
Last, i am curious to know how the Xibe farmers lost land to Han farmers? Care to elaborate? You don't just want to make empty sensational claims, do you? If the Han farmers are just more successful because they are more hard-working, more able and they acquire the land all legally, then tough luck. Learn to deal with it instead of whining.
The comment above was posted by office dweller at June 28, 2007 01:37 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.
@ office dweller
well, yes I said a lot that seems against Han, and which annoying you so much? I NEVER care who you're are and what you think about me, because you're a little untruthful flunky here. Do you know why? I have read every articles before I said something. And during my reading I noticed your name, and found that your opinions were ALWAYS against minor ethnic groups, however, you said some political correctness as well to conceal your real racial discrimination, making others think you're a just one, huh? Your averse words can be found in many articles in this blogsite. So at last I HAVE TO think that whether you're just like a OFFICE SPY or somehing disgusting here? Well, yes maybe we need some antagonistic voice here, but not too much! This site is named"The opposite end of China", so most visitors here are glad to talk about things that AGAINST you and your opinions. So why we need a Han yapping flunky here? Don't you realized that you're not welcomed here?
Of course my ancestors came to explore the West by the order of the Qing dynasty, then what? Were they orderd by Han? Before you Han arrived there we people had already make there a better place for more than 200 hundreds! We're more welcome by
natives than you Han. And what Han do then? They tries to CONTROL everything in this place. What you Han want from here is the natural sources, that's a fact everyone knows! You established everything to make the natives live stably,yes surely you Han did something good, but that's just a kind of means that taking cover of your spoliating the sources. And what do you know more about my xibe history besides migration? Did you just check it up in baidu.com or something? I also wonder how did you a Han could understand we xibe better? You've no ANY true knowledge to say so. In addition, I decide where I live and where I go, just as you having the rights, thus do you also want to control my life? Well, I agree with you that "All people are migrating.",however, I think you Hans are not welcome. Don't forget that not all incomers are welcome. If you're so confident enough,then why not listening to natives' voice? I mean true voices in their minds. They may tell you a lie that they like Han, however,they may feel sick to say so. There's the fact that you Han will never admit, that's you never think that you LOVE to intrude others by no force,actually, you intrude by lies and beguilements. As heverci quoted below:
"“汉人的话语始终甜蜜，汉人的物品始终精美。利用甜蜜的话语和精美的物品进行欺骗，汉人便以这种方式令远方的民族接近他们。当一个部落如此接近他们居住之后，汉人便萌生恶意。汉人不让真正聪明的人和真正勇敢的人获得发展。如若有人犯了错误，汉人决不赦免任何他人，从其直系亲属，直到氏族、部落。你们这些突厥人啊，曾因受其甜蜜话语和精美物品之惑，大批人遭到杀害。啊，突厥人，你们将要死亡！……如果你们前赴这些地方，突厥人啊，你们便将死亡！如果你们留在于都斤山地区，从此派遣队商，你们便将无忧无虑。如果你们留在于都斤山，便能主宰着诸部，永远生活下去！”"
I think you Han never change this for thousands years.Totally a deceptive manner! This is the true in eyes of others.
Finally, however Xinjiang is given a title "Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region" by CCP, see, its not "Xinjiang Han Autonomous Region". So why we need so many Han here? Now it's enough, no more plz! Your endless migration into Xinjiang will be doomed to rise a revolution in the furtue. 'Cause before you reached this place, many minor ethnic groups have already lived here
before you began to control them, they do have deeper love for this place than your apparent hypocrisy.
It's no use to analyze any words of mine and attack me with your redundant words,that will only surely make more people to attack you.
I hope you could live longer, OFFICE Dweller!
The comment above was posted by focus-2007 at June 28, 2007 10:12 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.
@focus-2007
I didn't see anything new in your post except some fresh personal attacks on me in addtion to the old anti-han rambling and your sense of entitlement as a 'minority'. I didn't even want to point you to the fact that not all Han people are the same and it's wrong to brush them with the same negative brush. I sincerely hope your post is not a reflection of your true intellegence. Because to be honest I didn't see much of that in your post. And how long I will live is neither relevant nor your business.
You still didn't let the readers know how the Hans got control of the land of the Xibe's. Again, care to elaborate on it? You surely don't want to make dramatic claims without backing them up, right? I look forward to your expansion on that topic. Also please point me and the readers to my discriminations against the ethnic groups. Because one thing I truely don't like is empty assertions without true evidence to back them up.
Xinjiang is 'Uighur' region and at the same time part of China and I guess it should be accessible to all Chinese citizens including the Hans, right? You may feel more entitled to Xinjiang than others and deem it your personal possession exclusive to others. Too bad many people don't agree with you on this and won't acknowldege your lordship to Xinjiang. Please speak for yourself next time on whether Hans are welcome or not. Narrow-minded people would never be happy with Hans and frankly we shouldn't give it a sh*t.
Last thing, if you are still living in Urumuqi or other Chinese cities or any foreign countries, please pack up and go back to your native Xibe village in your county, or eve better to native Xibe region in Northeastern China. If you are so against human migration and want all Hans out of Xinjiang, you would be happy to set an example, right? Let's start with you.
The comment above was posted by office dweller at June 28, 2007 09:04 PM unofficial Xinjiang time.
Han destroy everything they touch, just look at eastern china, the lakes are covered with blue algea, most of the rivers are dead and the air pollution is so concentrated it condenses on everything during the night.
Bad, filthy backward China.
The comment above was posted by nanheyangrouchuan at June 28, 2007 10:17 PM unofficial Xinjiang time.
@ stinky yangrouchuan,
I think you missed the 'rotten to the core' part. Oops! Are you getting old or something?
The comment above was posted by office dweller at June 29, 2007 09:05 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.
I think we can safely call this argument pointless for the time being! Save your energy for controversial posts in the future.
The comment above was posted by michael at June 29, 2007 09:18 AM unofficial Xinjiang time.