Watch this:
Chinese tolerance to free speech (in Korea)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43VRclSbqCQ

Jesus Christ the Chinese are such a bunch of crybabies.

Where is the venom that is ejecting out of the cobra's mouth? That would be a much better design.

@Tiako
Chinese's reaction is not even close to white Americans' reaction to the Holiness of Dr. Wright.

Please make sure that you wear the shirt with your fresh venom everyday. It would be the most artistic work in the world.

to add to my comment earlier, Chinese are such cry babies worse than big nosed jews and big lip blacks in america.

Jesus Christ, why cant the world be more like westerners and white people?

everyone in the rest of the world are such savages.

VERY GOOD!!!

FREE SPEECH to split other people's countries and snatch the Chinese national flag, so FREE ASSAULT AND BATTERY to korean to defend national sovereignty and dignity.

savages?
haha, an Aryan barbarian said Chinese are savages.
hahahaha

Funny... sometimes the truth hurts.

"@Tiako
Chinese's reaction is not even close to white Americans' reaction to the Holiness of Dr. Wright."

The wimpy Americans' reaction to Wright is certainly pale in comparison with what the Chinese Fenqings are doing. Not even close is right.

The post under the name "Tiako" at 7:21 AM (May 5) was not made by me. It was made by the same sorry worm who is too cowardly to argue fairly.

Michael, is there anything you can do about that?

"Chinese's reaction is not even close to white Americans' reaction to the Holiness of Dr. Wright."

First off, the situations aren't comparable. Westerners have been complaining about the Chinese government. Rev. (not Dr.) Wright has basically said that all white people are evil. Second, that statement is absolutely false. There has been violent actions taken by Chinese people against foreigners and Chinese who are seen to be critical of the Chinese government. There have also been many hate filled protests. Against Rev. Wright there has been nothing more than conversation. Not even protest marches, let alone violence.

I have no idea why you would say something so silly.

On the other hand, I am flattered that my arguments are effective enough to merit the use of profanity against me in your post name.

Nice T shirt! May be someone can have "Fuck off white folks, Tibet is none of your bloody business!", or "ship out all whites from Asian soil! Get out of Australia/New Zealand!"

That's an amusing shirt. I wonder if I can find the misspelled knock-off here in Shenzhen.

I haven't seen any of these where I live but judging by the venom that is still being spewed out of my students's mouths here about CNN, I am guessing that someone could make a pretty penny with these shirts around here.

Just for you CNN fan:

Forbidding city

Rowan Callick | May 06, 2008

THE Green Games now appears beyond reach. The Friendly Games is an acceptable alternative.

Protesters in Hong Kong demonstrate their loyalty to China and their antipathy towards Western media. Picture: Reuters
But the Fearful Games is looking more likely unless the signals from the top of the Communist Party are changed swiftly.
Somewhere in Zhongnanhai, the new forbidden city from where China is ruled, just west of the old emperors' palace, groups of senior cadres are sipping tea and scratching their heads.

At stake is "our" Olympic Games, as they are called in China. They are pondering how to prevent a surge in emotional, nationalistic support from creating a forbidding atmosphere for foreign visitors and provoking comparisons with the Berlin Games of 1936.

But at the same time they want to capitalise on the rush of fervent patriotism that is driving young Chinese all across the world, in the wake of the Olympic torch relay protests, to rally round the flag, the nation and the ruling Communist Party, which nationalists believe is coming under attack from ignorant, jealous and racist foreigners.

A new Chinese song features the chorus: "Let them scream and shout, China's torch will never be put out."

Outlook Weekly, an official magazine, warns: "Domestic and foreign hostile forces have made the Beijing Olympics a focus for infiltration and sabotage."

The Shanghai-based Access Asia newsletter says this angst has also helped the party divert attention from rampant food inflation: "Along came the French (torch protests) to the rescue, and the Government has been able to switch focus and channel anger and discontent towards (French stores) Carrefour and Louis Vuitton; inflation has, of course, not gone away, but has taken a back seat. A win for party centre."

At a rally last week marking 100 days from the Beijing Games, Jia Qinglin, one of China's top leaders, urged compatriots to "pool our patriotic passion to accumulate a mighty force that could overcome all difficulties in a bid to hold a successful Olympics".

China's leaders are aware of international expectations of a happy, relaxed setting for the Games. But if they feel forced to choose between cool and controlled, they will always opt for the latter. Their first instinct is to deploy that "mighty force" to pre-empt potentially troublesome elements. Foreigners are in the front line of suspicion: they could be a Falun Gong activist or Dalai clique splittist waiting to leap into action come August 8.

Police are sweeping through apartment blocks, quizzing foreign residents about their documents and who is living in their flats. They have banned a European Union Olympic carnival: apparently, too many foreigners gathering together. A music festival in Shanghai has been cancelled. People who have lived in China for years to study or

do business are suddenly unable to renew visas and must return home. Hong Kong has been stopped from issuing multiple entry visas to anyone.

The negative international fallout over the Olympics following the international torch relay is not a result of protesters highlighting their causes, including Tibet, Darfur, Xinjiang and Falun Gong; rather, it is a consequence of the virulence of the Chinese students who rallied round the flag with encouragement from authorities.

The reaction has been especially strong in neighbouring South Korea, which until recently was a staunch supporter of Beijing. But disillusionment has set in as a result of "history wars" claims by Chinese academics, now reinforced by the relay rallies. Jin Jung-kwon, a lecturer in German studies at Chung-Ang University in Seoul, says: "China seems to have no intention of making the Olympics a festival that people around the world can enjoy together."

A burden of expectation was inevitably attached to the Beijing Games, especially from the Government's side, to display to the Chinese people how the world's leaders were acknowledging the success of its modernisation program. And with the surge of patriotism created by the torch relay (which is now on Chinese soil), the significance of the Games in Chinese eyes has moved far beyond that of a mere sporting festival. In fact, in discussions about the Olympics in China today, sport hardly rates a mention any longer. It is lost in the wider discourse.

Last weekend a Chinese blogger posted the following comment on the website sina.com: "When a country gets the right to host the Olympic Games, it makes other countries jealous. China is strong, and this makes them afraid. So (the foreigners) encourage Taiwan, and encourage the Dalai (Lama). As Chinese, we should feel infinitely proud of what we are doing with respect to the Dalai, the Carrefour affair (boycotting and protesting against the French stores) and the Olympics."

A taxi driver in Qingdao pasted a sign on the back of his cab in English and Chinese: "Refuse to carry Frenchmen and dogs."

The blogger concluded: "Because we are now getting to a more and more important place among the great nations. No other country will help us ordinary Chinese. The one that can protect us best is always our very own Government! Because we are Chinese!"

Such sentiments - including the identification of the party and Government with all Chinese people - emerge from the Chinese education system, which focuses strongly on the period from the 1840s to the mid-20th century, when China was in a downward spiral as the Qing dynasty's inflexibility led to its collapse and civil war was compounded by a Japanese invasion. Chinese history thus tends to be viewed through the prism of foreign victimisation, even though the 19th-century treaty ports also introduced to the country elements of progress, including education for women, universities, modern medicine and new infrastructure.

Mao Zedong's disastrous Great Leap Forward, the Cultural Revolution and other party failures are off limits. China's official historians only don the black armband to mourn foreign incursions.

Similarly, the virulent attacks launched against Western media since the Tibet unrest in March - including death threats - are in part explained by Chinese citizens' lack of access to information. Chinese bloggers assail Western media bias without being able to assess it because of strict internet censorship. Chinese ask why foreigners feel so concerned about Tibetans, ignorant of the range and depth of material on Tibet widely available outside China.

Despite the Government's attempt to defuse some of the angst over the Games by returning to talks with the Dalai Lama's emissaries, the fierce rhetoric and the anti-Dalai Lama campaign, directed by a resurgent propaganda department, continue at full blast.

A commentary in the official China Daily newspaper last Wednesday said: "Dalai is spewing lies, rumour and hearsay. Sabotaging the Olympic Games by agitating violence and fanning Tibet secession won't be tolerated by the Chinese Government and will be firmly opposed by every Chinese. How can a monk full of lies dare to say he values harmony?"

After speaking at the Olympic rally last week, Jia launched an exhibition at the Nationalities Cultural Palace on Tibet, the Past and the Present. State news agency Xinhua says this shows how "Tibet has been an inseparable part of China since ancient times" and compares "the backwardness of old Tibet" with "the development and progress of new Tibet".

Wang Xiaodong, a researcher at the China Youth and Juvenile Research Centre affiliated with the party's Youth League, the core power base of President Hu Jintao, has become a widely published cheerleader for China's new nationalism.

Before the torch relay riots, Wang says, "people here didn't have as much enthusiasm for the Olympics as the Government had. But now we feel involved, because we can't bear the prejudice and hatred from the West."

He says the central recent event in Tibet was "the attack by Tibetan monks against Han and Muslim people". Distorting this into the suppression of freedom-loving Tibetans is "as if China praised the terrorists who drove the airplanes into the twin towers. It's obviously unacceptable to us."

Wang believes this period of resurgent Chinese nationalism will have "a profound and long-lasting significance, like the May4 movement in 1919", when students gathered at Beijing University to draft a manifesto against foreign incursions.

He says: "Some Westerners are saying that Chinese must make an effort to make themselves accepted by the West, That is an outdated opinion. The West must learn how to make itself accepted by the Chinese."

The new generation, he says, rejects Mao's socialism but embraces his nationalism, while also tentatively re-adopting some traditional Chinese values.

China's leaders are essentially administrators, he says, but when today's students succeed them, "China will globalise its national interests, and this will affect not just our close neighbours but the whole world. It must gain the capacity to protect those interests."

Could Beijing 2008 really resemble Berlin 1936? "It's a ridiculous comparison. The military power of China is far below the Nazi regime's. And we don't have Hitler's ambitions," Wang says.

Xu Youyou, a researcher with the Chinese Academy of Social Science, disagrees. Xu says the Government "is using its status as the Olympic host to strengthen its own legitimacy. It's paying a lot of attention to having Western leaders come to Beijing, as if to worship or sacrifice to the emperors." At the same time, however, he stresses that Germany's totalitarianism was rising in 1936, whereas today China's is fading.

He says people in China "are victims of the Government's information control". Many people have concerns about their daily lives, but "when there's outside criticism, the Government can use that to rally support at home. People are not given the means to distinguish between the glories of China and the glories of the party."

But as with previous incidents - the bombing of China's Belgrade embassy by a NATO rocket, the US downing of a fighter off Hainan, the protests against Japan's leaders visiting the Yasukuni shrine for war dead - "the leaders hesitate between arousing nationalism and curbing it".

Xu believes they are already starting to opt for the latter, slowly sucking the oxygen from the protesters while letting Western critics reflect on the implications.

They are very different from the 1989 demonstrators at Tiananmen Square, he says. "China is in a great transitional period. Some people are benefiting greatly, some losing ground. And it is the beneficiaries who are most strongly supporting the Government." In the 1980s, students were from workers' families, now a higher proportion are from privileged backgrounds.

Xu says the "One World, One Dream" Olympic motto is just a handy slogan, "more commercial than political", adopted by a Government that doesn't mean it. Xu expects a police visit as the Olympics approach, warning him to keep his head down. He receives such visits whenever there is a significant international meeting in Beijing.

Rowan Callick is The Australian's China correspondent.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,,23650049-28737,00.html

Has anyone acquainted the Chinese with criticism? Do they always go so far off the handle when they hear a little criticism? Hence, a bunch of crybabies.

'"Fuck off white folks, Tibet is none of your bloody business!"'

The point is that, technically speaking, it isn't China's business either seeing as China had no legitimate reason to invade.

Now I wait for some Middle Kingdom dumbass to start talking about the Tang Dynasty.

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crikey.com.au

What did the Chinese government to expect to happen when they applied to get the Olympics. By it's very nature hosting the games puts a giant spotlight on your whole country. And what does China do, instead of chilling out a bit and making themselves seem less oppressive than they are they go ballistic and highlight the oppression. Then complain that somehow the whole thing was a setup by the west to make them look bad.

That being said I want one of those t-shirts.

@ cph

Exactly. Precisely!

May 2008
Beijing Embraces Classical Fascism
In 2002, I speculated that China may be something we have never seen before: a mature fascist state. Recent events there, especially the mass rage in response to Western criticism, seem to confirm that theory. More significantly, over the intervening six years China’s leaders have consolidated their hold on the organs of control—political, economic and cultural. Instead of gradually embracing pluralism as many expected, China’s corporatist elite has become even more entrenched.

Even though they still call themselves communists, and the Communist Party rules the country, classical fascism should be the starting point for our efforts to understand the People’s Republic. Imagine Italy 50 years after the fascist revolution. Mussolini would be dead and buried, the corporate state would be largely intact, the party would be firmly in control, and Italy would be governed by professional politicians, part of a corrupt elite, rather than the true believers who had marched on Rome. It would no longer be a system based on charisma, but would instead rest almost entirely on political repression, the leaders would be businesslike and cynical, not idealistic, and they would constantly invoke formulaic appeals to the grandeur of the “great Italian people,” “endlessly summoned to emulate the greatness of its ancestors.”

see

http://www.feer.com/essays/2008/may/beijing-embraces-classical-fascism

the olympic torch reaches mount qomolongma summit. how you like that????

bap bap bap

check out this link: Olympic torch in Shenzhen

http://cache.tianya.cn/publicforum/content/sport/1/129605.shtml

To all anti-China morons, don't bother to sell your "freedom" in China, Chinese people wouldn't give a shit to it. Try to sell your "freedom" to African Americans frist~

@ pastor Wright

we'll see about that fascist pig. How dare you speak for the Chinese people - arrogant cunt!

the only place in the world so far that the torch has received a welcome is Shenzhen- wonder why? this is where the link pastor Wright posted above leads yu too - right, right, pastor wright, we are all convinced now of China's legitimacy, power, world prestiege. Who the fuck is pastor Wright anyway??? never heard of him

jmaes you are a coward, if you got the balls why dont you go out and do something instead of crying on the internet.

cnn is worse than al jeezera.

Wong, if cnn is worse than al jeezera, then where does cctv stand?

Infact this is a question to anyone who might now vermently hate CNN. We've all heard a lot of negative things said about western press by the Chinese public, but what does the Chinese public think about there own media?

Please, no fools reply.

jimba, you dissapoint me

when a chinese person brings up the bad sides of the US govt's policy towards its minorities, you so vehemently bring up that wrong doings by another govt doesnt give china an excuse to be bad.

but now you are using the same argument.

we are talking about cnn here not cctv.

i will use your logic, just bc cctv is bad, that doesnt give cnn the excuse to be also laced with propaganda.

typical westerner, you crticise a certain logic in someone's argument, and then you use it yourself on the first chance.

who in the west with any sense or poltical nous views CNN anyway? They both suck for the same reasons - full of propaganda and bullshit. My God lets move on - CCTV=CNN as far as Im concerned; just like peviously Radio America = Radio Moscow. Why dont yu all get onto some alternative media. Chinese fascists and American popophiles together get with it. Fuck me...

James,

I understand how disappointed you are now, when you found out the ideas you want to sell have no market in China.

Don't try to label Chinese people as "Fascists." I understand you are always haunted by the Holocaust. But I don't think it is a good idea to live in that imaginary. It may undermine your health.

You were fucked during the WWII, but you shouldn't portrayed yourself as the victim, since nobody is fu'cking you now. Particularly, Chinese people have no desire to fu'ck you like the Nazi did during the WWII.

If you keep playing the role of victim, the only explaination is that you are fu'cking yourself in your mind.

Ah, how I yearn for those glory days (a few months ago) when the threads were civil and the Chinese posters were represented by intelligent, clear thinking people like Sha and where criticism of Chinese government wasn't considered tantamount to racism, xenophobia, and Nazism.

Tiako,

Missing your golden age, huh? The word "intelligence" is essential indeed. Everybody's mind is volatile and fluid. When people speak to subhumans, people have to use language for subhumans.

It is your pity to lose your ability to speak intelligence.

Peace men !!!

This is awful. I saw spotted this link on the NPR website and came. What a mistake! People are trading insults here. Where is this intense hatred coming from? There is no tolerance of different opinions on either side, and people cannot even be civil. Does “F” word make you right?

Tong, leaving would be a bad decision. Michael runs an excellent blog here and as soon as the more passionate of the pro-China faction get bored the comment threads should return to their better form.

Or you can just ignore the comment threads, as I have attempted to do on numerous occasions, and enjoy Michael's funny and lucid writing by itself.

"It is your pity to lose your ability to speak intelligence."

Oh dear god, it's just too damn obvious. I can't do it.

I realize it is unfair of me to make fun of someone who is presumably a non-native speaker for such tortured diction, but really now, look at what he's saying!

@Tiako

to tell you the truth, this isnt a fair balanced blog at all. i have to change my name bc michael keeps censoring or deleting my comments all together.

i think hes biased.

he censors pro china voices, adds his own "small penis" comments to discredit them and deletes their comments, but he lets the china bashers go wild.

@ whistle. aka @ ponderer

Sure we believe you. Thanks for the enlightenment. Micheal made it all up about your very small penis.

@ poster wright

reads above post

May 2008

"Beijing Embraces Classical Fascism"

then maybe your ahistorical tripe and anti-semitism will be quieted. Yu are in the midst of a fascist dictatorship boy...on realization yu probabaly think thats good - thats how they are given power.

yu - like all good brainwahed Chinese communists -use a rhetoric where yu assume to speak for the entire chinese race - "the chinese people" Mao's "masses" - fortunately, not all Chinese are like this or believe this - unfortunately for the world, too many still do. beware of those who presume to speak for the "chinese people". Such arrogance (and delusion). poster boy are yu a party boy? I mean a member of the CCP - of course yu are . Why? Coz, only party members are allowed to speak for the Chinese people. the people are not allowed to speak for themselves. Love Chinese democracy.

Tiako is right, soon the threads will return to sensibility. May the true torch burn bright in every Chinese heart.

when the western imperialists have been burned to the death, then the glory nation of china will show cnn and the world what china is.

Ting ting, you're either taking the piss, arn't you.

Whistle, I have read this blog for some time, and I have been active on the comment boards for some time as well. If anything, he has been somewhat harsher on anti-China comments, perhaps to compensate for his generally pro-Uighur perspective (Or perhaps because, until a few months ago, the anti-China group tended to be the more wild).

So, in short, your lies aren't really very useful on me.

I mean, seriously, have you seen some of the comments above? If he censored pro-China comments, why would fu'cktiako's comically ironic above post not be censored?

Jesus, I thought Chinese were supposed to be clever in their deception. You couldn't fool a fifth grader.

Is that a Ting Ting from Beijing Jing?

Also, ponderer... I don't censor anti-China or pro-China comments, just direct attacks on myself that I find absurdly provocative and harmful. So leave me alone.

I wish all of you flamers would chill out... it's not interesting to anyone buy yourselves.

michael and taco,

we Chinese have an old saying:
Friends visit, we have wine;
Enemy inroad, we have guns.

If you choose to touch the political bottemline of Chinese people, you shouldn't expect to be treated with wine.

You are not offering any constructive criticism, but tend to undermine China. Splitism is THE bottom line for 1.3 billion Chinese. To us, spliticsm is like the best pornography. If you insist to show it to us and see how well it would work, I guarantee you a hardcore penetration.

If one day, you feel you are underfu'cked, welcome to China and sell us your splitist ideology again.

Welcome to Beijing!

@James and michael

its funny how jewish people are allowed be so racist but when something comes back at them, they cry an ocean

ok you like pointing out chinese people have small dicks. thats racists.

how do you like it being called hook nose? big nosed jew?
you 2 jewish people are racist towards chinese.
also, if a chinese worker wants to work in israel, he has to sign a no sex contract. why do jews hate chinese people?
when most chinese people admire and respect jewish people?

I truely feel sorry for the two people who posted above. How truely angry, dillusional, mis-educated can one be. You are truely brainwashed.

I am going to write an experience of mine here, it might be a bit long, I apologize in advance. I am an ethic Han Chinese and lived in US in 2003 when the “Shock and Awe” unfolded on TV in front of me, I remember crying over the innocent lives going to be lost. For months I voiced my concerns to anyone who would listen to me. And I can tell you I was not a popular person. So, my fellow Chinese, expressing his/her opinion does not make that person an enemy, even though the criticisms sting, even though it is from a foreigner. And what does it mean to be a patriot? I am pro-China, but I happen to believe when there is a world wide outcry, it at least signals a problem exists. Tibet is a part of China and it is our moral obligation to ensure their spiritual and material well-being. Don’t you think it is heart breaking that the Tibetan monks had to cry to the western reporters for help? It does not matter what the motives are behind the western protests, it does not matter what language the western media uses. What matters is there are ethic tensions in China, it is time for us to step back from the hurt and disappointment and face the problem. When we truly have our harmony, there won’t be a question of separatism.

A word for the westerners, you are welcome to criticize my English and opinion by the way, it is not constructive to criticize in abusive language, or stereotyping. It feels too much like bullying, it is understandable to arouse knee jerk reaction from the receiving end, don’t you think?

Tong, I can see little reason for criticizing your English. For one, you never called me a subhuman monkey, and two, your English is perfect.

What has irritated me, and has led me to call the Chinese a bunch of crybabies, is that this incredibly vehement reaction was the result of criticism, and more to the point, criticism of Chinese leadership. The words the Chinese have heard broadcasted are merely a toned down version of how we in he west will often criticize our very own leadership. Of course, this is when the words broadcasted and rebroadcasted were actually the words said by Westerners. There are several incidents in which the CCTV translation subtitles have not matched what was being said.

"why is it when we counter anti Chinese racists with the same bravado of extremity, we are called xenophobic brain washed fascist communists?"

The Western criticism of China was directed against its leaders. The Chinese took this personally and attacked Westerners personally. Then, any Chinese person who called for moderation was labeled a traitor and would receive death threats at the least. Any westerner who criticized was branded a racist white devil (apparently the irony there was lost) who hates the Chinese personally.

"You are not offering any constructive criticism"
I've tried, but then I was called a white devil racist. But you know what, I'm feeling generous. If you want me to, I will post a detailed account, reason by reason, of why the Communist Party is screwing the Chinese people over. And you know what? I'll limit it to just Hu's administration, and just to Han dominated areas. That's right! No criticism of policy in Tibet, Xinjiang, or Inner Mongolia.

Incidentally, do you catch the irony of saying my criticism is not constructive when your pseudo is "fuck Tiako and Michael"? You can play the victim card better if you don't be such a dick about it.

Whistle wrote: "what if some afghan sheep herder went to washington and started lecturing americans on how to be more civil on their history, and how brainwashed you are?"

Dude, seriously, I'm not American and I believe there are others here who share my sentiment when I say I think Bush is a moron; I think Iraq is simply f*cked up. But that doesn't mean I hate all Americans, does it.

But so what? I criticise my government all the time, because my government is accountable to the people so I know that many voices can make changes for the greater good. What I don't like about your government is that they're accountable to no one, which means they can basically do what they like and only the voices of the few dictate what is best for the many: hence why truth is what you're told, not what you can be discovered.

This isn't an attack on the Chinese people, so stop being so damned sensitive, this is leveled at SOME of your government's actions, so unless you want to provide us with a rational arguement other than the zealous patriotism that lacks any rational thought then please join the chorus of other netizens and continue your "splittist, running dog, white devil" tyrant elsewhere. I'm only interested in understanding your perspective if you have something meaningful to say. (Oh, and I'm not interested in state-sponsored propoganda).

tiako,

You should appologize to Tong. We are different people. I am not a party boy. If I could be a party member, I wouldn't bother to come to the North America.

I admit, we Chinese play the victim card occasionally (provocatively). But I feel some Jews are better than us on playing this trick. Put this way, some Jews are using the blood of Jewish victims in the WWII to justify their political, economic, and cultural hegemony.

I also admit, playing the victim card could be detrimental to the one who plays it. For instance, if we play the card to the Dalai Lama, we may hurt 6 million Tibetans. If we play this card to Japan, we may let the U.S. to take advantage. If Obama plays this card, he will lose white lower/middle clase voters. We Chinese know this, so we have dialogues with the Dalai Lama and Japan. Obama knows this, so he promotes his gradparents' working class ethics (even though he may think that is crap).

However, from what I see, Jews are still enjoying play the card without noticing the side effect. You guys are using your "victim" role to show people in the world your moral superiority. By doing so, you impose your political agenda on us.

One day, the history will revenge, to the White protestants or to the self-whitened jews? I am not sure. History will tell us.

ok granted some of you do level criticism mostly at the ccp, and maybe your beef truly is with only authoritarianism,

everyone except that sino phobic racist james. his criticism is beyond the ccp. he truly hates chinese culture, especially the han ethnic group.

that being said, who are westerners to say what kind of govt we should have. yes right now the political situation in china is not perfect, but its getting better. stop trying to rush us.

and dont expect our political situation to be identical with yours, it never will be, so dont hold your breath.

let us evolve in our own way, at our own pace, and when the time is right, sure there will be more openess, transparency, accountability all the things you think we need, we will achieve on our own, on our own terms. at our own pace

in the past 30 years china's economy developed and opened on its on terms, it wasnt forced open like in 1850s,
and in time, we will take more steps in other areas.
so dont try to force open our politics like westerners forced open our economy in the 19/20th century.

when you start lecturing us on how to do this, and how we should have done that, you slow down that opening process and make us dig in our heels more.

im not asking you to love it, but be patient with it.

given our history, our size, our problems, your so called democracy will tear china apart, worse than what the USSR and yugoslavia suffered.

i know racists like james want that fate for china, so we will defend against those who wish us ill.

the chinese state is far smaller compared to the past, we already gave up and lost a lot of territory, we will not give up anymore. the chinese commenters went over board bc the china bashers did.

remember in asian culture, when you insult our govt, we interpret it as an attack on us personally. just like if you insult my father, i feel it as an attack on me personally. its confucianism.

its different compared with western cultures

@ Ponderer. Nice post. Thank you for your perspective.

ponderer, that post would be excellent if it had any grounding in reality The CCP has shown no signs of lessening its death grip on your nation one whit. Tiananmen, my friend, always remember Tiananmen.

"everyone except that sino phobic racist james."
I wish you would stop calling people racist because they disagree with you. It's a very low tactic. We all know that you posted lies under the name of whistle to try to discredit Michael.

"You should apologize to Tong."

For what? For saying his English is good, or for disagreeing with him in a civil manner? Perhaps for posting under a name that is a personal insult to him?

No, wait, that is you posting under a name that is a personal insult to me. But I guess Chinese people should never need to apologize to a subhuman, eh?

Oh, heads up, I'm not Jewish, and Judaism has nothing to do with this. Constantly ranting about Jews doesn't really help you look like someone who is not a racist dick.

i never lied. ask michael and read his previous posts, he did in fact censor, delete, and alter my comments after i leveled reciprocal insults at him.

as for june 4th, its was a heavy handed incident, everyone knows that, and in due time, the govt will address it. remember, it took them almost 30 years years to address the chaos of the cultural revolution and that it was a mistake. give us time, but dont force us to act the way you demand.

when one is impatient, as tiako seems to be, it feels like one wants our downfall. that you want the chinese state to collapse, to return to the era of decentralized power, the war lord era of the early 20th century.

that will never happen.

the alternatives you speak of, the solutions you preach, its easy to say sitting in the cozy confines of the west, that it will all end happily if we Chinese just accept "western democracy",

but for us Chinese who know how other Chinese will act, who know our history, who understand fully the potential for instability, anything short of what we have now will result in chaos.

its easy for Westerners to say the situation in china is bad now, but we Chinese know it can be much much worse.

what is the meaning of freedom if there is chaos? the iraqis were free on april 9, 03, what did they do? they looted Baghdad.

freedom, democracy, has to come at the right time for it to be truly meaningful, and with 800 million uneducated peasants in china who are so susceptible to the rumor mill, our country is not ready yet..

the most important aspect of freedom, democracy is its right timing, not its definition or arbitrary implementation from without.

speak with a reasoned and intelligent tongue, and you will get it return.

be a flamer, well then, we can play hard ball too....

I saw this on another China blog:

"When the U.S. has to endure Chinese warships sailing up and down the Mississippi and Colorado Rivers, forcing the U.S. government to allow Chinese businessmen to sell heroin openly in America; to permit Chinese Marxist "missionaries" to preach their ideology and set up communist studies centers throughout all of our cities, and finally, have groups of Chinese citizens everywhere who are subject only to Chinese law and exempt from American law...

And then, when average Americans are outraged by this and rebel against the Chinese occupiers, the Chinese army burns the down the White House and loots the Smithsonian, and after 100 years the Chinese tell our descendants to "forget about it, that's old history", perhaps our descendants will understand how the Chinese feel today when they consider themselves bullied and under attack from the west..."

@Jake.

get in the present man. Stop living in the past. Otherwise, Im gonna dig up confederate ghosts and send them down on Washington...as revenants...

as well, America did not do what yu said - it was Britain..

if ya gonna be all historic and sapient- dont be anachronistic.

It just sounds like moralistic goobledeee gooooook.

Ponderer, to be honest, I’ve heard your words come from the lips of many many ccp leaders, but from my perspective, it's the case of China wants all the good that the Multilateral system has to offer, for instance development, but when it comes to the trade-off in enforcing the Multilateral rules and norms in regards to political and civil rights, China shouts "impatience," on the part of the west. Your leaders can't have the pie AND eat it.

Also, critics feel that the sooner China becomes serious about human rights the better. Lip-service and acknowledging there is still a lot to be done is one thing, genuinely demonstrating a commitment to those rights is quite another. What many rights advocates fear is a shift in the normative orientation towards a more flexible, contextualized approach, with greater toleration for non-liberal communitarian or collective approaches to rights issues.

So, while it is true that China must forge its own path, it must also do so within the parameters (the rules and norms) of the multilateral system for which it is a major player. Most of the criticisms of China are motivated by a genuine commitment to the normative superiority of democracy and rights for everyone.

Another article which exemplifies the contradictory nature of official Chinese reportage (policy) toward Xinjiang:

a. There is a threat.

b. Its dangerous-

We must suppress with overkill: PLA troops, PAP (people's armed militia), Bingtuan armed troops,
Anquanting (secret service - internal), spies (from all nationalities and all walks of life in paid service to the Anquanting and Gonganjiu).

c. This threat is only posed by a small 'tiny' minority. It is under control. No problems.

d. Everything is safe- especially for western development and investment.

Not hard to work out what is really going on.

But what is the situation?

one of danger or safety?

How can it always be both?

which inevitably allows for and justifies serious suppresdsion of the Uyghur people in Xinjiang?

Its either safe or it isnt.

But when it really comes down to it- its always safe for business investment. "Hang on what terrorism threat. Didnt that cheques say 1 million U.S.$?"

Another example of this bi-polar neurosis can be found in this article:

"Ducking terrorism specter, China official says restive west safe for business"

2008-05-09 08:59:11 -

BEIJING (AP) - Chinese officials sought Friday to reassure investors that the restive western territory of Xinjiang is a safe place to do business, despite alleged terrorist plots and protests among its native Turkic Muslim population.
«These are the acts of a tiny number of isolated individuals ... and can have very little effect on
the region as a whole,» Xinjiang Vice Gov. Hu Wei told a gathering of journalists, diplomats and government officials in Beijing as part of a promotion for an annual trade fair in September.
«In terms of economic development, social stability and ethnic unity, Xinjiang really is seeing the best time for development in its history.

Read on:

http://www.pr-inside.com/ducking-terrorism-specter-china-official-r580477.htm

@ PONDERER, WHISTLER, LITTLE DICK

"ok granted some of you do level criticism mostly at the ccp, and maybe your beef truly is with only authoritarianism,

everyone except that sino phobic racist james. his criticism is beyond the ccp. he truly hates chinese culture, especially the han ethnic group."

They have been busy over the weekend.

So in self defence of my mistaken bias and racism:

WRONG AGIN PONDERER. I just hate yu. coz yu is such a meat head idiot. And it hurts doesnt it whistler to be told the truth about yrself? ouch...

keep the tripe coming but as Michael says

why dontya just lay off and say something constructive. Yu are a poor, sick, deluded little thing...this is obvious to all, so why bother? Yu just give China and the Han people a bad name...so if ya care...yilupingan, bye, bye crybaby.

BTW ponderer

what is this supposed to mean?

more moronic gigantism again?:

"he truly hates chinese culture, especially the han ethnic group."

HUH?

Is Chinese Culture greater than the Han ethnic group?

I also love this other posting by Tingting perhaps one of the specially commissioned net group sent to plague this site. Despite the rantings of the likes of myself or others on this blog or any other blog site at that, I have never seen the likes of this posted by any non-Chinese about China. This stuff should curdle the stomach; and the likes of ponderer cry when people mildy yet directly and honestly criticize the CCP which he cannot seperate from the "Han ethnic group". He (ponderer)also rains down racial abuse upon the Jewish people, their physiogonomy, etc.

Anyway here is the beauty of Han tolerance in action:

"when the western imperialists have been burned to the death, then the glory nation of china will show cnn and the world what china is."

oooh cant wait for that day:

ponderer, this posting by Tingting and, yrs as well, are the problem, not the Han ethnic group
(whatever that is anyway). These postings are indicative of something very, very, sick at home in the hearts of SOME Han people. This is why China will never succeed in the world - such people are backward and retrograde. They take China back to the madness days of the Cultural Revolution - whose ideology BTW has never been denounced by the CCP. Why? Its just a mistake. Oh right. Like sorry, I just slipped over, my direction was correct. No, it hasnt been denounced becoz it was Mao thought; and the CCP has of yet not rejected that backward man's madness. Like Tiananmen, the Cultural Revolution never been owned or denounced by the party which birthed it. Most of the young patriots screaming their heads off now for China against the French, may have no idea what happened in June 1989; nor do they realize the same nation they are screaming for, the same party, could just as easily slaughter them in the streets tomorrow if they saw fit in the name of the nation, in the name of CHINA (Zhongguo). The poor misguided fools.

So please no BS about mistakes. It is the likes of yu ponderer and ting ting, representative of the brainwashed idiocy of the Han race (not nationalism or patriotism) who murdered, burnt, and persecuted and tortured your own people in the Cultural Revolution in the name of the nation, of China, of the CCP, in the name of Mao, of the propaganda that says the Han are right - as in the film "Bawang bie ji"- "the Han armies are coming, the Han armies are coming" always threatening any one who opposes their supremacy, who dares to be different even in their private thoughts:

Its good people like yu rise yr heads at this time. It shows the world what lurks behind China's progressive face - how far in fact, China really has to go to take its place among the family of nations - not as a bully boss but an equal member = 'family' - and how brittle and incapable it is of receiving criticism. How defensive it is of its crimes aginst its own people, especialy its "minority" slaves.

grow up and move out of the past little tosser:

as I and others have said previously, Ponderer, go your way into Han land...and leave the future to intelligent Chinese...zaijian.

@hook noes James

"He (ponderer)also rains down racial abuse upon the Jewish people, their physiogonomy, etc."

so i guess you can throw racial abuse at chinese people but when it comes back to you, you cry like a baby.

you are allowed to call my little dick, but when i call you hook nose, im the racist? and we all know jews have smaller dicks, i dont know why you are obsessed with this topic, maybe your girlfriend said you had little dick?

as usual, i couldnt finish reading what you wrote. you make this blog tiresome with your long whiney rants, and i think it is you who is mostly drawing this "plague" of chinese commenters.

if your criticism could be more reasonable, say like jimba's then it would be more pleasing to debate with you. but you are the cry baby, you are the one who rants like someone who is on the defensive, whining about this.

your criticism is more insulting than constructive, and you arrogantly rant about a bit of knowledge you acquire through hear say and speculation.

ponderer . get fucked.

is that too long for yu???

for ponderer. a long, lomng post. I know yr english is poor for an ABC but get this into yu, yu paragon of balanc and tolerance:

China's Fall From Grace No Surprise
05/6/2008 |

Former Washington-based columnist for The Hong Kong Standard, The New York Sun, and Insight on the News, an online weekly published by The Washington Times. Covered economic and political relations between the United States and East Asia, with an emphasis on China, Taiwan and Hong Kong. Former chairman of the Hong Kong Journalists' Association. Currently a business executive at a Chinese-language newspaper in Hong Kong.
The Current Discussion: In his recent PostGlobal blog post, "The Ugly Chinese," commentator John Pomfret says the world's perception of China isn't as rosy as it used to be. Do you see China as a threat? Why? Why not?

HONG KONG – Clear-eyed observers of China are a rare breed, but Steven Mosher is one of them. In his brilliant 1991 book, China Misperceived: American Illusions and Chinese Reality, Mosher wrote:

"For the past two centuries, American perceptions of China have oscillated between the poles of love and hate. In brighter moments China was seen as the land of Marco Polo and Pearl Buck, peopled with wise, industrious, and courageous folk. But regularly, almost cyclically, the pendulum swung back, and the cruel and violent China of the Mongol hordes, the Boxer Rebellion, and the 'human wave' attacks reasserted itself. The Chinese heroes of the anti-Japanese resistance became the totalitarian masses of the 1950s, the riotous young rebels of the 1960s, the public-spirited proletarians of the 1970s, and the poor but deserving folk of the 1980s. The Tiananmen massacre has once again tilted the balance, and the pendulum has swung to the other dark extreme."

When the book came out in 1991, China's image had hit rock bottom. For a while, it almost seemed the pendulum would never swing back to the other direction. Who would have thought Beijing could pull off the rebound that it did? And what an astonishing bounce back it was. A decade after the Tiananmen massacre, China joined the World Trade Organization, won the right to host the Olympics and became Wall Street’s darling. With the help from leading politicians, business executives, scholars and diplomats in the West, China has successfully implanted a rosy picture of its future in the world. Dubbed the "Soothing Scenario" by James Mann in his book The China Fantasy: How Our Leaders Explain Away Chinese Repression, it contends that the successful spread of capitalism will inevitably lead to the development of democratic institutions, free elections, an independent judiciary and a progressive human rights policy. China is destined to open up its political system, and trade is the key to unlocking the door.

The Soothing Scenario looked like it was all set to bloom this summer, when a supposedly peaceful-rising China was scheduled to have a coming-out party at the Olympics. Then, out of the blue, the plan was derailed. The Ugly Chinaman took the stage. The pendulum is once again swinging, and fast. It's really extraordinary for knee-jerk anti-American Europeans to view the Middle Kingdom as more dangerous than the Great Satan. In fact, it should have come as no surprise to anyone who sees through to the real nature of the regime, which has remained unchanged despite spectacular developments on the surface of Chinese society. The Chinese Communist Party is interested in only one thing: holding on to power. It has only two tools with which to do so: more lies and more repression.

After the Tiananmen massacre, the eminent China scholar Simon Ley’s assessment was, I believe, still valid for China today: "Unfortunately, its poison might outlast the beast itself. The legacy of such a regime can even be more evil than its rule. The collapse of the present government is ineluctable; what is to be feared is that, after 40 years of economic mismanagement, in the present circumstances of overpopulation and poverty, with a population brutalized by four decades of relentless political terror, worse horrors may follow." (After the Massacres The New York Review of Books, October 12, 1989)

Brainwashed by the regime and ignorant of the bloody history of the People's Republic since 1949, the new generation of angry youths smacks of the Red Guards during the Cultural Revolution.

Michael A. Ledeen, a scholar at the American Enterprise Institute, points to a likely chilling future of China. In an article, "Beijing Embraces Classical Fascism" in the latest issue of the Far Eastern Economic Review, Mr. Ledeen argues that the heirs to Mao Tsetung and Deng Xiaoping act more like disciples of Mussolini and Hitler than communists. "Hitler's Germany and Mussolini's Italy were every bit as sensitive to any sign of foreign criticism as the Chinese today, both because victimhood is always part of the definition of such states, and because it's an essential technique of mass control," Mr. Ledeen writes. Like their European predecessors, the Chinese claim a major role in the world because of their history and culture, not just on the basis of their current power, or their scientific or cultural accomplishments. "It is only a matter of time before China will pursue confrontation with the West," predicts Mr. Ledeen. "A great Roman once said that if you want peace, prepare for war."

Beijing 2008 has always reminded me of Berlin 1936. I'm not the only one who feels that way. Some Jewish leaders in the U.S. are calling for the boycott of the Olympics. In a petition called "China Olympics Are Not Kosher", they say:

"We remember all too well that the road to Nazi genocide began in the 1930s, with Hitler's efforts to improve the public image of his evil regime. Nazi Germany sought to attract visitors to the 1936 Olympics in order to distract attention from its persecution of the Jews. Hitler's propaganda minister, Joseph Goebbels, called the 1936 games 'a victory for the German cause.' We dare not permit today's totalitarian regimes to achieve such victories."

I can only pray that the West will find another Churchill and Roosevelt.

i love how they always try to compare us to their own monsters.

Hitler was your baby not ours. hitler grew up and came out of the european tradition,

so stop trying to say we will stoop to your monstrous level.

And Jewish people are complaining about china?

hahah

go look at the occupied territories if you really want to see human rights abuses. go ask the mossad who kidnaps and torturers people.

Israel's arpatheid govt is infinitely more harsh then china's policy towards it minorities.

if there is a hell, churchill and roosevelt are sitting at the VIP table with your uncle hitler.

they were both murderous leaders. they committed genocide by the air.

stop trying to compare 2008- with 1938.

if anything, 2008 will be more comparable to 1988 games.

Ok try this massacre of Uyghur youth eleven years ago in Ghulja (Yili). and try and kiss yr own little monster.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RUCOrg2Pb0&feature=related

go on look at the footage of barbarism and tell me that yu dont uphold a brutal fascist regime that murders its own youth in the streets. Go on. It might be yu one day. But I doubt it. Coz yure a party hack for sure.

By the way I am pro-Palestinian.

BTW yu are not born in the west.

i know where i was born, i dont have to verify to you, and i dont care if you dont believe.

you are probably just pissed that someone who cam from the west could have such pro china views.

and i dont believe that you have central asian roots. you are probably some hick from mississippi, or some other rural back water from another western country.

Here, I'm going to just state my position in hopes that we can all find some common ground.

1. The Communist Party is a brutal autocracy, not just to minorities, but to all Chinese people.

2. Most Chinese people realize this and genuinely want the government to change to something that allows more freedom. However, the CPC has been exploiting patriotism, at times with blatant lies, in order to keep the Chinese people angry at the West rather than turning their anger inwards at the government.

3. The coverage in West did have some bias against the Chinese government. However, the anger felt from the Chinese comes more from a general unfamiliarity with Western media. For one, CNN, Fox, MSN, etc., do not claim to speak for the whole of the American people nor for the US government. When a reporter says the Chinese government is brutal, he is speaking for himself and thus only he can be held accountable. Secondly, there is a real difference between criticizing the government and criticizing the Chinese people. The harsh words said about the CPC are not one tenth as bad as what many at CNN will say about Bush.

4. The Opium War was a bad thing. I will always say that. But to criticize modern governments for that is like criticizing the modern Chinese government for its handling of the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom revolt.

5. Calling me a white devil and promising to kill me when I set foot in China doesn't strengthen your argument. In fact, it makes you look like a bit of a buffoon.

"i never lied. ask michael and read his previous posts, he did in fact censor, delete, and alter my comments after i leveled reciprocal insults at him."

You claimed that Michael was doing it for racist reasons. He says it was because you went over the top or attacked him personally. I'm inclined to believe him. Also, you claimed that, and quote, "he adds his own 'small penis' comments".

I have a t=shirt with a picture of the Dalai Lama on it. How far do you think I'd get wearing it arond Shanghai?

@everyone:

I think that's enough for this post. Give your fingers a rest for a few hours, and I'll try to give you something new to argue about.