I totally agree with your position. The poor guy is going to be in a huge trouble and no foreign missionary is going to remain side by side with him to defend him and partaking his fate.

I agree absolutely. It is a real shame that the people who suffer are those 'saved' by the missionaries and not the intruders themselves. When I was in PRC I came across evangelists many times and not one of them ever convinced me he/she was actually doing anything good or positive. For many it seemed to be a game, for others it was a way of getting one over on the commies; either way there was something unpleasant and subversive about their activities.

I shouldn't be negative but I just wish the authorities would give the culprits a taste of Chinese jail before being expelled - expulsion alone is too kind.

I don't particularly like missionaries, but I also don't think restricting free speech should be encouraged. The fact that, in this case, the Chinese government's intentions are generally good (Promoting stability) doesn't change the fact that the laws are tyrannical.

As for the fault of the missionaries, they didn't force anyone to convert.

I've never liked people who tried to force religion on anyone. It doesn't matter which religion. I've often had to explain my religious beliefs here in China because I'm not Christian and many Chinese are curious. But I will never tell anyone that one religion is better than another.

Now we just have to wait and see what will happen with the thousands of missionaries planning on coming into China for the Olympics.

@Tiako:

The missionaries don't force anyone to convert, but I bet they offer free hot chocolate and cookies at Christmas! Who could resist?

China will become less and less paranoid over time. Their authoritarian ways of governance are a way to "save face" for China to slowly ease into something that resembles a representative democracy. Their past bastardized view of Communism leaves the government looking like a fool with no clothes (but they got guns). Never has such a brutal regime killed so many people in a so little time....but they are changing for the better...slowly.

@JH,

The missionary problem in China was long before Communist party birth. In the fact, it was as a tool of imperialists and colonists back then. Remember Box Rebellion?

The problem to preach in Muslim Xinjiang and Lamaist Tibet is called "destroy their cultrue identities". Everytime when Chinese government try to build some nice houses for nomads, China was being attacked by destroying their way of life, how you think all Tibetans worship Jesus instead of Dalai Lama? Or all Uyghurs yelling Haliluya?

they need counter proselytizers education in these like turkey (if i remember it correct) and more positive understading and suppor of islam and lamaism... from the goverment (sounds impossible but this is for the stability.. you know?) and citizen....
btw happy eid al fitr!!!

@Michael.


I never counted on them being so devious.



@Sha


I think calling missionaries "a tool of imperialism" is putting it a bit incorrectly. It was more just one of the many ways the Europeans rather paternalistically tried to "Westernize" the rest of the world. It's interesting to note that globalization has managed to do this far more effectively than colonization.

@Tiako - Missionaries don't use force. They only preach, cajole, coerce, pressurise, browbeat, persuade, tempt and use any other method they fancy for spreading the good word. Any responsibility for those who change their ways and then end up in trouble with the PSB guys rests entirely with the converted. Is that what you're saying?

@Sha - calm down a little.

As far as I know communism was imported to China from Europe? Not very chinese stuff. And not by missionairies but by Stalin's agents, which sounds much better, I agree.
I am not argumenting for the sake of stupid evangelisation at the expense of locals. But I wonder what exactly do the missionairies virulent critics stand for?
The Xinjiang muslims? They are persecuted by chinese. Or today's successors of Mao, today at the helm, who are at the roots of China's spiritual misery?

Kruczkowska: Communism is a political theory, just like democracy and human rights, which are all imported from Europe. Speaking of spiritual misery, the Uyghurs are quite faithful muslims. What kind of spiritual misery are you talking about?

Technically, Communism is an economic theory, which I'm mainly saying to be pedantic but also because the political aspect of Communism was pretty heavily Sinofied. Also, there are historical Chinese precendents for things remarkably like Communism. Actualy, come to think of it, China has never really had private property in the modern sense.

@skangar - I doubt the missionaries have the power to do any of that in a place where one word to the authority would put them on tomorrow's flight to LA. And remember, from the missionary's perspective, if he wasn't converted he would burn in hell for all eternity.

I'm just saying there are two sides to this coin. I do not think churches should be sending missionary groups to Xinjiang (Although I assume there are places in China where they are tolerated), but I think baning them is all the worse.

@Taiko - I hate getting into these circular arguments as they rarely go anywhere - but this time will be different . . . . :-)
Evangelism by outsiders or foreigners in China is illegal; we might question the sense or morality of that but it's not our country and we must respect the laws of the land where we choose to live; if we are not prepared to do that we should go elsewhere. Missionaries, evangelists, whatever we want to call them exist [illegally] in China. They are not there on holiday but are there for a purpose. The fact that that purpose is contrary to the law of the land doesn't seem relevant to them - spreading the word is above the law wherever they are, so far as they are concerned.

Yes, some do use questionable methods of persuasion. Some are clever/cynical enough to develop guanxi with officials before entering into their activities to give themselves protection. End result, only a few get kicked out. A popular tactic amongst them is to use teaching as a front. One of the colleges where I taught has been systematically infiltrated by an evangelical organisation [ELIC] and the foreign teachers section is now overrun with young 'missionaries'. The tales I hear from those I left behind almost make me glad I didn't stay.

Why do people want to behave this way? I am at a loss to give an answer and don't really care any more. I just wish they would stop messing things up for others and go away - but what chance is there of that happening.

http://www.tconline.org/worldview/lastfrontier/503112.html

Huh. Well, I'm willing to admit that I didn't properly understand the situation. I assumed the officials would be so hostile to missionaries that any suspicion would get them deported. So, never mind, I guess.

Have anyone actually spoken to a Chinese christian? much different to speaking to a western one really amazing and beautiful people. They have a strength and hope which I havent seen in many western christians, it is not something the foriegn missionaries have given or taught them it is from somewhere else.

Yes, I have spoken to Chinese Christians... and when they tell me that they believe in Jesus, I run away as fast as possible before the PSB straps me into the ball-crushing machine.

By the way, this is a hilarious bit from Sinocidal referencing the closing of the Caravan Cafe in Kashgar:

Niccolo: I is starving, let’s go to eat.
Marco: But Papa, where do we go? I a sick of eating de fucking mutton.
Maffeo: Yeah Bwoy, I just gonna check on this Lonely Planet China book. OK, I checka da map, we is ere (points at map on page). We can eat at the Caravan Café, they got cheesecake and all many nice things.
Marco: Ow far uncle?
Maffeo: It’s just up the road and turn left. About five minutes.
(Three days later the Polo family pull up outside the Caravan Café only to find it is boarded up with a big ‘closed’ sign nailed to what used to be the door)
Maffeo: Dis fackin book a shit. De maps are always fackin deformed and wrong.
Marco: (Hailing and old lady passing by) Hey, old Uyghur lady, why de café a closed, eets de ite of de fackin season?
Old Uyghur lady: (in perfect Italian) They got closed coz they meddling fackin missionaries innit. Trying to get people to believe a carpenter was the sun of god by making them eat cake and French bread.
Niccolo: A fackin carpenter! That’s about as likely as a painter taking over Europe with a chicken farmer as is elper.

Brett, Michael:
Well, i almost become one of those chinese chrisitian >. im thinking of becoming a ukrainian orthodox... mayb... they seems a bit more merciful (and compassionate) and torelateable... im in canada rite now

Reading the sample comments:
Missionary Problem?
Christian evangelists don't do anything good?
Don't discuss Christ with anyone?
Tool Of Imperialism?
Forcing Religion?
Respect the law of the land?

It appears the recent posters are some of the biggest blowhards on the planet.

Perhaps you would like to become Muslim, after all, the Muslims allow free religious speech, no penalty of conversion, no hostility.

Perhaps you really dislike God, and avoid any spotlight on your own vague belief systems.

You know, all religions cannot be right, they have serious contradictions between them.

In most every country of the world, persecution of those who preach Christ's diety is standard. How many Christians died, rotting away in communist countries jails over the last 100 years? Only recently, in a few western nations, is religious speech tolerated. The truth is that the freedom of religious speech in America is an abheration in human history, maybe never to repeat again.

Close your ears! Shut me up! Don't you dare listen to the hollowness of your heart!

Todd, I am trying to listen but your self righteousness is deafening.

The sound of hollowness echoes from your heart, perhaps?

Well said, Todd. Possibly, LaTourette's Short History of the Far East would add some perspective. Dr. LT was for many years Yale's voice of full thought and reason on the subject.

Remember, Todd, being right doesn't mean you are de facto self-righteous. Of course, neither is correctness an antidote to priggishness, so we are wise to consider well the source of righteousness. Ironically, those who accuse one of self-righteousness are usually the ones who believe holiness is found only through self.

Christianity says righteousness is free for the taking in the substitutionary atonement of Jesus, fully God come to earth to save all who trust Him. Every other religion says that either you are god or that you must work to be rightly related to Deity.

The Christian way stands alone and is heinously offensive both to those who desire to be God (little has changed since Genesis 3) or to those who desire to work their way to God (see John 14, especially verse 6.)I think those who willingly lay their lives on the line to share that unique perspective are to be applauded and supported.

Even if I don't agree with Christianity, the winsome and honest desire to share their good news is to be lauded. If my neighbor thought my house were on fire, I would be grateful for him running to get me out - even if I don't believe there is any danger at all. If he did so at his own peril, his efforts become heroic.

I live in the PRC. I am a missionary and own a business.

I do what I do simply because Christianity is True. Any reasonable person willing to do the research on the historicity of the Bible will see that. Reading C.S. Lewis´s ¨Mere Christianity¨ will also help.

And because Christianity is literally true, so is the fact of man´s sin and God´s offer of forgiveness.

The Muslims, Tibetan Buddhists, and Atheists of China are no different from any one of us. They have all shattered God´s moral law every day of their lives. Lying, stealing, cheating, selfishness, pride, etc... God not only sees these obvious sins but also sees and (rightly!) judges even the thoughts and intentions of the heart. The thought life of man is exceptionally wicked ... how would you react if every one of your thoughts were to be posted online for all to see. You would be horrified. You know the evil that you are capable of and the things your mind has pondered throughout your life.

So with sin being such a reality in each person, and the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ for the sins of the world being such a powerful historical event (the New Testament is the most historically documented ancient book ever!), I am here in the PRC to share the Truth with as many people as I can.

I can´t force anyone to convert. Human beings do not want to leave their sin. Every salvation is a miracle in its own right. Praise God that miracles are happening every single day all throughout the PRC, including Xinjiang and Tibet.

How could we let the PRC´s petty laws about conversion and proselytizing keep us from sharing the Truth of forgiveness of sin with people destined to die?

I could let the Muslims and Tibetans just die in their sins... they deserve it, just like I deserve to be judged for my sins. But Jesus died for me and has saved me and these people might, just might, lay aside their pride and trust in Him if they hear His message. That´s why I am here.

Ryan, please leave us uyghur alone, we turks have lost enough things already, we dont want to listen to another group of people tell us that we are inferior.

I think the vitriol against foreign Christians actually betrays an ethnocentric, 'colonialistic' attitude on the part of the anti-missionary folks here, including the author. I'll explain.

First, are the locals so stupid that they can't think for themselves and make their own decisions, and so they need you and draconian laws to protect them from *ideas*? And are foreigners running around coercing locals to convert?

Second, the underlying value/assumption you're championing, that if one's beliefs can be classified as "religious" then they ought to be kept private, is at least as much a modern Western cultural import as evangelical-style Christianity. The very act of condemning the propagation of "foreign" values/ideas is, in this case, doing the very same.

That you would consider agreeing with the "draconian" anti-religion laws currently enforced, insinuating that foreign Christians are to blame for the suffering of locals, makes it look like you've got something personal against Christianity going on, and that your despising of Christians/Christianity isn't primarily rooted in some sort of care or concern for the locals. You also insinuate that foreign Christians fled the country to avoid being persecuted themselves, deliberately abandoning the locals, yet surely you know that's not the case and that if they have indeed left the country it's most likely they were expelled by the government. I'm not playing psychologist; I'm just saying it looks really suspicious.

And a bonus parting thought: quarantining some beliefs, ideas, and truth-claims as "religious" is an artificial categorization that, while common, doesn't describe reality very well. Beliefs are beliefs, ideas are ideas, etc., and ghettoizing some as "religious" while others, like Communism or atheism, get different treatment, suggests an underlying (perhaps subconscious) bias. It also doesn't do justice to the respective nature of the individual ideas in question.

Neil's hypocrisy and upholding of the Chinese law (which he flagfrantly holds in derision obviously by the subversive nature of his blog yu are now reading)when it comes to prosyletizing is revealing. Oh well thought we had a free thinker here...no...
by the way proslytization has been a part of Turkestan's history since...ummm...?

is the present any different?

no matter what religion?

Has history finished here. now.

ummm...
read the history of Xinjiang in the 1930s/ Its available online "East Turkestan in Revolution" to see that these currents have been around for a long time in one for m or another and Turkestani Christians ahave paid ahigh price for their abandonment of Islam when they chose to do so. Neils' ignorance here is dissapointing. Freedom of speech but not for Christianity. For that matter other forms of Islam in Xinjiang as well. If we follow the reasoning. and we know aht hgappend to the maligned "Wahabists" in Xinjiang Uphold the law. Sure Neil. You are a beacon of enlightenemnt thinking.

Even Neils' 1000 something days in Korla reveal no a little more imbedded lonely planet type who decided to stick around a lil longer. I am not arguing for or against Christinaity missioners or prozelytization here. Just fr freedom of speech and a plea to the hypocrites to look a lil deeper...

for that matter most missionaries in Xinjiang as Neil the 'old hand' should know are Chinese themselves. Are they allowed to prozelytize in Xinjiang Neil? Or would yu have them tortured imprisoned and executed for their beliefs?

I feel for the local Uyghur who have been caught up in this but as the earlier blogists have noted they knew well the consequences and also were not co-erced.

Total freedom of speech or tyranny Neil!

Meowkun. Do yu know the Christian History of what China now calls Xinjiang? Many famous Uyghur academics have written on it. Go to your back copies of Bulak journal, etc. Yu may be surprized.

Neil when yu leave Korla and all of yr aquaintances are hauled in fr questioning when the subversive nature of yr blog is out in the open or deemed so by the authorities. Will yu be to blame from the luxury of yr new Beijing digs for their suffering? I can just hear em screamin. Get real and get fair or stop posing as some kinda champion of the truth. YU LEAVE, BUT YU WILL LEAVE TROUBLE BEHIND. KNOW IT oR YU DONT KNOW CHINA. OR YU DONT CARE??? HMMMM??????

I believe "Neil" should read "Michael". Sorryy about the subversive bit...but...

...and by the way Michael. Giving information to unofficial journalists (who pass thru as travellers in Xinjiang) as yu have within China is also against the law and worthy of punishment and looked upon as spying by the auhorities. Good law? Uphold it? "Got It" smart arse...

your hypocrisy, bias, and discrimination make me sick.