I have never said anything about China's possession of Tibet and Xinjian. When foreigners bash China for ruling the indigenous people in these places, I find it impossible to get angry. Bashing China for any other reason (regardless of its legitimacy) gets me mad as hell like extinguishing a live cigarette butt on a monkey's ass. But however vehemently foreigners demand "free Tibet", or Tibetans demand their independence, I don’t have anything to say. I have been wondering why not. I have never talked to a Tibetan or Xinjiang person. I know little about their cultures, aspirations and grievances. If they want to be independent and live by themselves, I do not have anything against it. At the same time, I do not have anything against the Chinese for not letting them go either. The whole situation is a matter of historical inconvenience. Blaming the Chinese for protecting its ownership of Tibet and Xinjiang is unfair. It is unfair because China did not actively acquire these places. These places ended up in China's possession as inheritance from the Mongolians and Manchurians who conquered China, along with Tibet and Xinjiang. However once in China's possession, it is hard to let them go now. Not wanting something and giving up something you already own are completely different situations. The Chinese people will not tolerate a government that gives up Chinese territories (think about the Qing dynasty), no matter how Un-Chinese the inhabitants of these territories are. Beyond nationalism and pride, there is the strategic issue of national safety. Giving up control over Xinjiang and Tibet is not just giving up land, but also giving up a buffer between the Chinese and hostile forces beyond its range of control. If the Chinese leave Xin Jiang tomorrow morning, the Russians, Americans and British will move in tomorrow by noon. If the Chinese leave Tibet tomorrow morning, the Indians will move in tomorrow afternoon. In this sense, the Chinese, Tibetans and Xinjiang people are bound together as hostages of historical events that they had no control. The most productive outcome is for these groups to live together cooperatively, and build a common future.

Believe it or not, I'm of a similar mind with you on these issues. I view Tibet and Xinjiang like I view the United States west of the Mississippi River (or the whole thing, for that matter). Sure, it used to belong to the Native Americans, and later on the French and the Mexicans, but that was a long time ago and now its ours. There's no way the U.S. is going to give up Texas and California, and there's no way that Tibet and Xinjiang will be allowed to break away from China.

It just ain't gonna happen, and its counter-productive to think of the problems in these regions as issues of independence.

Chinese rule over Tibet & E. Turkestan (Xinjiang) is not like US rule over CA or AK. It's more like colonialism as in French rule over Algeria or British rule over India. People once thought France would never give up Algeria or Britain give up India, but it happened. Mongolia was once under Chinese rule but it's now independent. E. Timor was under Indonesia but it's now independent. Tibetans & Uyghurs don't live living under Chinese colonialism any more than East Europeans liked living under Soviet domination. Freedom for these countries is only a matter of time.

The Chinese presence in Xinjiang dates back to the time of Wu di and the expeditions of Zhang Qian, who discovered that chinese silk had already reached central asia by way of India.

Map of Han Dynasty
Map of Tang Dynasty

To Wangchuck:

Bullshit you speak here.

As your logic, if you find Chinese silk any where in the world, so it must be Chinese territory? So, Rome was also under Chinese rule at ancients times, huh...??????

@bianxiangbianqiao,

You can look back during Tang Dynasty for the answer. First Tibet took over Tuyuhun in Qinghai then posed big threat to Chinese interest in Central Asia. It was due to Tibet's threats, that Chinese power in Caspan Sea diminished. It was also a reason China lost the Northern Vietnam when a Tibet-allied Nanzhao attacked. Later on, Tibet also took over Gansu after AnShi rebellion which made today's Xinjiang unaccessable.

That is main reason Kubila Khan went in Tibet by recognize the national security issue. People today may not understand this issue. But when China and Soviet Union was on hostility, the Soviet troops stationed in Mongolia can move to Beijing within 72 hours. If China lost Tibet and Xinjiang you probably will see US military base move into Hami or Chamdo the next day. Just like US moved in Bashkent right now.

Also it is false to claim that China "ruling" over indigenous people. The old system is called Tuoshi system which let the indigenous people have their own life style and system but appointing chiefs as civil administrators.

@Wanchuk,

Colonialism only concerns to grab the resources and taking the market shares without concerning about people's benefit. For example, in Hong Kong, British ruled for 99 years, but NEVER try to install a system like what they have back in home.

China's taking on Tibet and Xinjiang is considering they are part of China. Unlike the old Dynasties who just let whatever the old systems there, CCP was actually try to abolish the slavery and serfdom and genuienly believe that slaves and serfers should be free people like their master. Just consider the good relationship between Yi Chiefs (back when they allied with Red Army in 1920s and paid dearly by retribution from Nationalists) and Khampa Chiefs, CCP can just left the system alone with provoking any rebellions. Should they make a peaceful out of that? At least CCP did that in Guizhou, Xinjiang, Yunnan, Guangxi, Inner-Mongolia, etc. But Yi of Liangshan and Khampa of Ganzi were only two places voilance occured.

I like how some Chinese argue why Tibet (and East Turkestan and Inner Mongolia) belongs to China. They say there was a time in history when that territory was part of the Chinese empire. By the same logic, the Italians could claim all of Western Europe and parts of the Middle East. All those lands were part of the Roman Empire. Mongolia, too, could claim lands that Genghis Khan conquered, including Hungary and Russia. A very persuasive argument, indeed.

@Eva,

The main argument is that they were part of China in history, and more importantly, they are part of china NOW. Think about that, my dear Eva. Hope you can get it.

@Eva,

Korea, Burma and Vietnam were part of China in ancient history but not mean China has terrority claims for them now. Same as Outer Mongolia that China gives its indepedance at 1947.

In contrast, Tibet, East Turkestan and Mongolia were part of China at 1911 and at 1950. No single government around the world acknowledge those places are countries.

If Italian still own the all of Western Europe and parts of Middle East by 1911 and acknowledged by all governments around the world, I think they should keep it.

If Mongolia still keep all lands by Chingis Khan, good for them. Or if Roman Empire never fall apart, or keep rebuilt over and over in almost same style, then be it.

The fact is life is hell in the region, for the people who have been there since ancient times, and it is because of chinese domination and oppression.

How do you like hell?

How you answer that question determines your impression of whether Chinese should rule the region.

Sure we could wipe out the sufferers, make it all in our style and re-populate it from the overflowing populations of the East--as the historical reference to America and the native Americans.

However, in this case I would hope others would be able to agree that that just ain't civilized.

So, as China proceeds to try to do this, please feel free to call them the "true barbarians"...

...and do what you can to throw your support behind the suffering civilized peoples.

I disagree with both Sha and BianxiangBiangiao. Nation states with defined territories were concepts invented by the West during the Enlightenment. These concepts were then later forcibly transferred to Asia. Today, some Chinese people unfortunately believe such absurdity.

No government is legitimate without inheriting the mandate of heaven. When the Qing empire dissolved, the mandate went into hiding. After the liberation, the mandate became once again available. Unfortunately, because the PRC was atheist, it neglected the implementation of correct rituals. Therefore, the mandate remained as undeveloped potential. Today, seeing as many places have revived correct rituals, the mandate is apparent. Therefore, the PRC must defend its Qing inheritance. Otherwise, it loses legitimacy.

It's useless talking about the independence of Tibet and Xinjiang. They were Chinese territory and are now Chinese territory. You should respect reality. The Chinese just inherited these places as part of their territories. Why don't you talk about independence of CA,TX or Alaska? Would the Americans like to let these places to go away? I just don't understand why you don't want the Chinese to rule Tibet and Xinjiang. I think you should talk about why the US should return CA, New Mexico, Arizona and Texas to Mexico instead of worrying about the Chinese rule over Tibet and Xinjiang!

Why don't you ask a Tibetan or a Uyghur if they want to remain under Chinese rule?

I think the Japanese need to come back to China and occupy it once again to give these Chinese a reminder of what it's like to be under foreign domination.

[quote]The fact is life is hell in the region, for the people who have been there since ancient times, and it is because of chinese domination and oppression.[/quote]

Life was like hell in the region because many people in the region were living in their natural and tradional style of living of their own choice to keep their culture alive.

This kind of life was considered not too bad in middle ages but is generally viewed terrible compared to today's modern facilities and inventions.

China had been subjected to all kinds of exploitation by the British and European powers,
drained away countless treasures and resources by
opium wars, war conpensations and economical colonialisam for centuries, then suffered astronomical loss due to the Japanese invasion.

Despite Chinese people have kept working hard to
rebuild their country for decades, they are still
not yet saved enough to take good care of their population. To compare China's life style with Western powers' is like the robbers are laughing at their victims' miserable life conditions.

[quote]I think the Japanese need to come back to China and occupy it once again to give these Chinese a reminder of what it's like to be under foreign domination. [/quote]

Japanese are hated much mostly due to their atrocity towards weaker people, like biological test, chemical warfare, comfort women.
The Germans were alike, much hated by Europeans.

Indeed, when Napolean conquerred Europe, he was not so hated by the conquerred.

to "truth"

If you think that the Chinese haven't committed any atrocities in Tibet, then you've been living under a rock (aka: you're oblivious to the obvious truth).

Why the Russian succeeded in their expansion,
while the Germans failed, the Japanese failed,

Because Russians in their expansion are much
less atrocious to the people they conquerred,
even brought about development, that is why the conquerred accepted their rule.

Although the Americans in their invasion of Iraq did commit lots of atrocities by mistakes of unintentional design or by scums of the army, they are not so hated by the Iraqi people, they are generally considered the liberation army.

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